Double barrel shotgun question

[JP Remington]

I have a question about the rules and how they relate to SxS shotguns.

In the shooters handbook

On P22 :-

There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun, it will be cocked.

On P19 :-

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only  (some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm):

- Empty.

- No live round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed  (restaged for further use)

- Action open.

So my question is :-

At the end of the shotgun string can a SxS shotgun shooter open the shotgun (cycle) and restage with empty hulls in the chambers without penalties? 

SHB P22 conditions:-(my assumptions in bold)

There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open Condition is satisfied - no penalty 

or that the shooter has cycled. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun, it will be cocked. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

SHB P19 conditions:- (my assumptions in bold)

- Empty. No

- No live round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use) N/A

- Action open. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

Thoughts?

Thanks 

JP

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

Read the definition of “Action Cycled” in the current SHB-it only applies to lever and pump action long guns.

The Double cannot meet the “condition”.

[JP Remington]

5 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

Read the definition of “Action Cycled” in the current SHB-it only applies to lever and pump action long guns.

The Double cannot meet the “condition”.

P38, thanks for that.

What is the penalty for leaving fired hull/s in SxS shotguns?

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

2 hours ago, JP Remington said:

P38, thanks for that.

What is the penalty for leaving fired hull/s in SxS shotguns?

Same as in CAS:  MSV

[JP Remington]

18 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

Same as in CAS:  MSV

Thankyou, is there a reference in the SHB you can point me to?

[Missouri Ruffian]

12 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

Read the definition of “Action Cycled” in the current SHB-it only applies to lever and pump action long guns.

The Double cannot meet the “condition”.

I must agree the addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go. However, isn’t it likely this was there before SxS’s were allowed in Wild Bunch.  If so, and since a SXS would meet the real definition “Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer.” (or in this case hammers) wouldn’t a rule change be in order?  Similar changes should apply to “Action Closed” and Action Open.”

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Missouri Ruffian said:

I must agree the addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go. However, isn’t it likely this was there before SxS’s were allowed in Wild Bunch.  If so, and since a SXS would meet the real definition “Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer.” (or in this case hammers) wouldn’t a rule change be in order?  Similar changes should apply to “Action Closed” and Action Open.”

The reason that part of the rule is there, and will be there, is to ensure the sxs shooters attempt to cycle instead of just open, drop, and run.

[JP Remington]

Great answers about the rule, thanks to everyone for their input.

On my read the penalty for this rule has been omitted in the latest version (17.6) of the SHB.

Pages 28 and 37 in version 17.4 (2024) specifically call out the penalty for leaving an empty in the chamber of a long gun as a MSV.

Pages 28 and 37 in version 17.6 (2025) are silent on the matter.

@Missouri Ruffian I like your thinking but it's not the hill I want to die on today  🤣

[Flying W Ramrod]

3 hours ago, JP Remington said:

Great answers about the rule, thanks to everyone for their input.

On my read the penalty for this rule has been omitted in the latest version (17.6) of the SHB.

Pages 28 and 37 in version 17.4 (2024) specifically call out the penalty for leaving an empty in the chamber of a long gun as a MSV.

Pages 28 and 37 in version 17.6 (2025) are silent on the matter.

@Missouri Ruffian I like your thinking but it's not the hill I want to die on today  🤣

That's because there is no penalty for leaving a round on the carrier or in the magazine, the penalty is for not cycling the action.

SHB Pg 28: - "Not cycling the action of a long gun at the end of the shooting string before the next firearm is fired"

 The only penalty for a round left is for a Live Round in the Chamber.

As the definition of "Action Cycled" is spelled out in the SHB Glossary, pg 38, as "Action Cycled (lever and pump action long guns) – Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer." It shows the SxS does not fall under this, therefore, the chambers must be empty.

[JP Remington]

9 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

That's because there is no penalty for leaving a round on the carrier or in the magazine, the penalty is for not cycling the action.

SHB Pg 28: - "Not cycling the action of a long gun at the end of the shooting string before the next firearm is fired"

 The only penalty for a round left is for a Live Round in the Chamber.

As the definition of "Action Cycled" is spelled out in the SHB Glossary, pg 38, as "Action Cycled (lever and pump action long guns) – Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer." It shows the SxS does not fall under this, therefore, the chambers must be empty.

Forget about pumps and levers for a minute.

SxS shotgun, leaving empties in the discarded gun, MSV yes?

Where in the current handbook does it say MSV. 

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

6 hours ago, JP Remington said:

Forget about pumps and levers for a minute.

SxS shotgun, leaving empties in the discarded gun, MSV yes?

Where in the current handbook does it say MSV. 

 

Again, the penalty is NOT for leaving empties in the discarded gun, it's for NOT CYCLING THE ACTION.

SHB Pg, 28

You need to get your head away from what's in the discarded gun, and look to, has the action been cycled. As there is no action to cycle in a SxS, it must be emptied.

All long guns, lever, pump or sxs, with a live round in the chamber is a SDQ penalty.

 

[JP Remington]

OK, we'll leave it there.

[El Chapo]

11 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Again, the penalty is NOT for leaving empties in the discarded gun, it's for NOT CYCLING THE ACTION.

SHB Pg, 28

You need to get your head away from what's in the discarded gun, and look to, has the action been cycled. As there is no action to cycle in a SxS, it must be emptied.

All long guns, lever, pump or sxs, with a live round in the chamber is a SDQ penalty.

 

The question presented was an empty, not a "live round"

[Flying W Ramrod]

9 hours ago, El Chapo said:

The question presented was an empty, not a "live round"

The answer was given, multiple times.

Any type of round, except live, left in any, cycleable, firearm is a no call if the action has been cycled. SxS cannot "cycle the action" therefore, any round left in the SxS is, either a MSV or SDQ. 

Again, not for the round but for NOT cycling the action.

[Boggus Deal]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

The answer was given, multiple times.

Any type of round, except live, left in any, cycleable, firearm is a no call if the action has been cycled. SxS cannot "cycle the action" therefore, any round left in the SxS is, either a MSV or SDQ. 

Again, not for the round but for NOT cycling the action.

So opening the action would not be considered “cycling” it?

Maybe the whole idea of doubles in Wild Bunch should be reconsidered…

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Boggus Deal said:

So opening the action would not be considered “cycling” it? NO

Maybe the whole idea of doubles in Wild Bunch should be reconsidered…  Take this up with your TG.

SHB Pg 22

"There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun, it will be cocked."

SHB Pg 38

"Action Cycled (lever and pump action long guns) – Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer."

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

At least SASS retained the concept that an empty case or hull left in a long gun is a “no call” as long as the action has been cycled.  They could have changed the rule back to mirror the CAS rule that the shooter had to clear the rifle or shotgun.

Cowboy shooters who want to use a double in Wild Bunch have to clear it, same as in cowboy.  That’s simpler than having a different rule in each sport.

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse.  Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am.  I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up.  But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book.

As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled..  It’s called a Break action or Break-open action.  Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round.

The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun.  Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS.

We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled.  If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun.  It will be cocked.”

From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun.  If it is open or been cycled.  It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario.  So did shooter open the SxS?  If yes, no call.  Was the gun cycled?  If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked.  So another yes.  No penalty for empty hull in a SxS.

In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”?  Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute.  The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute.  So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled.

So onto the last issue.  Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled.  Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage?  As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary?  It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB.

Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”.  The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB.  There was no Action Cycled at this time.  In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added.  But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term.

Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action).  You will get a no call from me.  Benefit of doubt to the shooter.  And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post.  Y’all have a great day.

Got my flame suit on

[Flying W Ramrod]

4 hours ago, Cardboard Cowboy said:

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse.  Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am.  I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up.  But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book.

As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled..  It’s called a Break action or Break-open action.  Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round.

The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun.  Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS.

We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled.  If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun.  It will be cocked.”

From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun.  If it is open or been cycled.  It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario.  So did shooter open the SxS?  If yes, no call.  Was the gun cycled?  If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked.  So another yes.  No penalty for empty hull in a SxS.

In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”?  Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute.  The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute.  So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled.  SHB Pg 38 Action Cycled (lever and pump action long guns) – Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer.

So onto the last issue.  Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled.  Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage?  As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary?  It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB.

Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”.  The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB.  There was no Action Cycled at this time.  In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added.  But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term.

Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action).  You will get a no call from me.  Benefit of doubt to the shooter.  And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post.  Y’all have a great day.

Got my flame suit on

Glad you got your suit on,

See reference above.

If you don't like the rule, take it up with your TG to have it brought up at the next vote.

Until then, SxS must be empty. Pump and Lever guns must have actions cycled, per the glossary of terms.

 

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Hehe,

  Still fail to see any actual rule referenced above.  

On 6/28/2025 at 8:33 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

The answer was given, multiple times.

Any type of round, except live, left in any, cycleable, firearm is a no call if the action has been cycled. SxS cannot "cycle the action" therefore, any round left in the SxS is, either a MSV or SDQ. 

Again, not for the round but for NOT cycling the action.

But if I use your reasoning and think that a SxS cannot "cycle the action", I might buy it.  I'm still calling no call.  Your statement of the SxS must be empty as it is not "cycle able" holds no water for me.  When the ROC tells me different, I'll change my call to a MSV.

Have a great day.

 

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

5 hours ago, Cardboard Cowboy said:

Hehe,

  Still fail to see any actual rule referenced above.  

But if I use your reasoning and think that a SxS cannot "cycle the action", I might buy it.  I'm still calling no call.  Your statement of the SxS must be empty as it is not "cycle able" holds no water for me.  When the ROC tells me different, I'll change my call to a MSV.

Have a great day.

 

 

 SHB Pg 38 Action Cycled (lever and pump action long guns) – Opening the action far enough to cock the hammer.

The only penalty is for Not Cycling the Action.

Don't like it? Contact your TG.

[marshal stone]

Everyone is getting wrapped around the axle on this one.

Please refer to both the handbooks for Cowboy page 16 and Wild Bunch page 19.

The very first thing that both say for safe to leave the shooters hand is, and I emphasize is, "EMPTY"

Read what the manual actually says for the shotgun reference safe to leave shooters hands. 

Marshal Stone

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Thanks Marshall.  I do agree with that.  But I still have an issue/concern.

First the Cowboy handbook has no bearing on what we do in WB.  But I will follow your recommendation to look at both handbooks, to include the new ROBS course.

Agree both ROBS and SHB for both Cowboy and WB state, safe to leave shooters hands "empty", for the shotgun reference.  But if you read in the MSV section, for Cowboy, bullet 1 and 2 both reference leaving an empty in the action or chamber of a long gun as being a penalty.  So this penalty follow's with the "safe to leave shooters hand" statement.  I would also emphasize "EMPTY", as this is the correct call.  

Now the problem is in the ROBS and SHB for WB.  I agree that both ROBS and SHB for WB have the "safe to leave shooters hands" statement, and that condition is "Empty".  But in the WB SHB (ROBS does not mention this issue for WB) under MSV infractions, there is no mention of leaving empties in the action or chamber of a long gun as a penalty.  So this does not follow with the safe condition to leave shooters hands.  And where/what penalty would be assigned?  Nothing is stated in any of the penalties overview for this condition.

Reading further down in both ROBS and SHB we start to run into conflicting statements.  Starting with ROBS unit 10: CAS v WB - Key Elements.  Third bullet is "There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is "OPEN" or that the shooter has cycled".  Not going to get into the fight on whether it's possible to cycle a SxS.  By opening the gun and cocking the hammers the requirement has been met for "OPEN", and the result, according to the new ROBS book, is no penalty.  But then I'm also assuming that a hull is referencing a fired, empty shot shell.  If it's not, maybe that's where my problem is.

WB SHB also has this same no penalty statement for leaving an empty case/hull in the safety section for all firearms.

So if your statement "and I emphasize is, "EMPTY", is the official ruling.  You will need to remove all those other statements (from the WB ROBS & SHB) of no penalty for an empty case/hull, in addition to the PO Pocket Card.  The RO Pocket card only list one MSV, and it is not for empty hulls. You will also need to come up with an addition to the MSV infractions to award a penalty for this action.  The way it is now is very conflicting.  

If we use your emphasis of "EMPTY" what is the penalty and where can that be found for WB?  

Depending on how this goes, you should also look at the verbiage for Rifle Conventions (in both BODS & SHB) as it has the same empty case in the gun, it is a NO CALL-as long as the gun was cycled.  But then almost directly under that statement is the "safe to leave shooters hands, Empty" statement.  

Again just trying to get this straight in my head.  Because the way I'm reading this, no matter what call I make.  There cannot be a penalty as nothing is listed in the Penalties Overview covering this situation.

Thanks buddy.

 

 

[El Chapo]

On 6/28/2025 at 6:33 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

The answer was given, multiple times.

Any type of round, except live, left in any, cycleable, firearm is a no call if the action has been cycled. SxS cannot "cycle the action" therefore, any round left in the SxS is, either a MSV or SDQ. 

Again, not for the round but for NOT cycling the action.

I don't think your read is correct.

I also think the fact that we can't agree on how to read this language suggests that this needs clarification.

A SxS can certainly be "cycled" and "cocked."  Neither of those concepts are unique to pump or lever action guns.  Even a bolt action gun can be cycled and cocked.

A definition that is limited to what "cycled" means for a pump or lever action gun doesn't tell you anything about what "cycled" means for a SxS nor does it exclude a SxS from the concept of what it means to be "cycled."  In this case, it's likely the authors never considered it, but even that would not have any bearing as language often has to address facts not considered and the intent of the authors has nothing to do with what words mean even if some would find it persuasive.

I think looking for ways to penalize someone for something that isn't clearly a penalty is an automatic no-no.  If there's no clear rule that makes a certain infraction a penalty, then it should be no-call, just like "I thought I saw a miss" is a hit.

That said, I have never used a SxS in WBAS and I don't intend to start, absent my M12 going down mid-match.

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Ahh, Wednesday morning and this horse is still kind of twitching.  I was really hoping someone with actual authority would have chimed in and answered this.  But oh well, It's like waiting for the VA to make a decision, very slow and hope you get the desired outcome.

I will also say I do not intend to start using a SxS in WB.  But I did actually shot a stage at a North Carolina match recently and did use my SxS.  It was the perfect scenario.  Only two shotgun targets, sitting right next to each other.  SxS kinda stoked will sure beat a pump every time, at least for me in this situation.  Everyone called me a gamer, "NOT ME", I said.  

Ok final comment from me on this post, to try and lighten it up a bit.  Maybe my attempt at humor will wake that horse up, and he can run far away from this post.

Many years ago when I was working at our HQ, we had one of our instructors who taught the mini gun and 20mm armament system on the Cobra helicopter.  He really was not a good instructor.  He would basically read verbatim from the lesson plan to the students.  If anyone had a question this instructor would re-read the same exact verbiage, except he would read it really slow.  Then he would ask, "got it?"  Repeat this action if questioned again.  Then move onto the next lesson plan.  This guy was the perfect example of an individual who experiences the phenomenon called "Illusory Truth Effect".  

So I will continue to give a no call on this situation, if it ever come's up.  Benefit of doubt to the shooter.

Hey about a new Mantra:

If you see a SxS cycled-it's cycled

If you think a SxS is cycled-it's cycled

If you think the SxS is open-it's cycled

If shooter throws it on table, not opened-It's not cycled

Y'all try and have a nice hump day