NOT CAS with a 1911!!

[Whitey James]

I found out (The hard way) that WBAS is NOT just CAS with a 1911. I shoot a stage where you had to move to shoot your shotgun last and re-holstered my pistol and all I heard was "waaaaaaaait" but, alas, it was too late.

Being that I have shot way more CAS matches, I was used to doing that with my revolver(s). I still don't understand the logic but now at least I know.

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Whitey James said:

I found out (The hard way) that WBAS is NOT just CAS with a 1911. I shoot a stage where you had to move to shoot your shotgun last and re-holstered my pistol and all I heard was "waaaaaaaait" but, alas, it was too late.

Being that I have shot way more CAS matches, I was used to doing that with my revolver(s). I still don't understand the logic but now at least I know.

Maybe that's something we can fix someday.  There's no reason a safely holstered pistol should be any kind of penalty.

[Flying W Ramrod]

2 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Maybe that's something we can fix someday.  There's no reason a safely holstered pistol should be any kind of penalty.

except when in slide lock, it's easier for it to fall out of the holster.

Also, it would then require you to drop mag, slide forward, pull trigger, to ensure you don't have a live round in the chamber.

Too much time, and chances for baaad mistakes.

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

There are other action pistol sports in which reholstering the pistol is not allowed or at least discouraged.

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

There are other action pistol sports in which reholstering the pistol is not allowed or at least discouraged.

Not true.  It cannot be required but it is not prohibited to holster a pistol on the clock in all of the other handgun shooting sports where I have shot tens of thousands of rounds through a 1911.

12 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

except when in slide lock, it's easier for it to fall out of the holster.

Also, it would then require you to drop mag, slide forward, pull trigger, to ensure you don't have a live round in the chamber.

Too much time, and chances for baaad mistakes.

It is not required that one do any of those things.  The other sports 1) require a holster that covers the trigger and 2) permit the holstering of a pistol with a round in the chamber and the safety applied.  Really, it's that simple. 

In 5 decades of matches it has been proven that those safety rules are completely sufficient.

If the gun falls out of the holster, it's a match DQ.  Pick your holster carefully.

 

What we need is a serious culture and attitude change toward the automatic.

Edited April 25 by El Chapo

[Flying W Ramrod]

4 hours ago, El Chapo said:

 

 

What we need is a serious culture and attitude change toward the automatic.

I would suggest you contact your TG, provide them with actual handbook citations regarding this issue, and help them work on it.

It all starts with the TG's.

[Jorge]

El Chapo,

Which shooting sports, action shooting, allowed reholstering a pistol without it being cleared by a "safety Officer" during a course of fire?

 

[Whitey James]

I am wondering what the difference is in re-holstering your revolvers and moving. someone may have loaded a 6th round by mistake and have a non transfer bar revolver with a live round under the hammer. I think, loaded or not, if the gun is holstered  and the trigger is covered, it's a pretty safe gun. Other than the Sig P320, I have not heard of a gun going off while holstered.

I am not saying the rules should be changed, just pointing out the fact that in CAS it's okay, but not in WBAS?

[Garrison Joe]

11 minutes ago, Whitey James said:

someone may have loaded a 6th round by mistake and have a non transfer bar revolver with a live round under the hammer.

No they won't.  Only if they cocked that revolver and then de-cocked it  - following having shot 5 rounds.  The almost always occurring situation is they fire their fifth round and directly holster and the gun is safe for movement (hammer down on that last fired round) even if there is a live round in the NEXT chamber  of the cylinder.

That illustrates the possible safety impact of overloading a semiauto pistol as compared to the almost insignificant danger caused by overloading a revolver.

20 minutes ago, Whitey James said:

in CAS it's (overloading a revolver) okay, but not in WBAS?

Not totally OK.   Penalty for overloading the revolver in Cowboy (usually assessed by the unloading table officer) is covered by a rule: Failure to adhere to loading instructions - which is a Stage DQ.

good luck, GJ

[Flying W Ramrod]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

 

Not totally OK.   Penalty for overloading the revolver in Cowboy (usually assessed by the unloading table officer) is covered by a rule: Failure to adhere to loading instructions - which is a Stage DQ.

good luck, GJ

There is no penalty for overloading any firearm. It's what you do with that unfired round which earns the penalty. In the case of rifles: overloaded round fired = P; left in mag tube/on carrier = MSV; any portion in chamber = SDQ; used to complete shooting string = M + P; ejected = No Call.

In the case of pistol: if fired = P; if used to compete shooting string = P + M; if left under the hammer = SDQ; if left in cylinder, but not under hammer, = No Call.

 

Edited April 26 by Flying W Ramrod

[El Chapo]

On 4/25/2025 at 6:59 PM, Jorge said:

El Chapo,

Which shooting sports, action shooting, allowed reholstering a pistol without it being cleared by a "safety Officer" during a course of fire?

All of them.  It's just not common because it's slow, and it cannot be required because competitive holstering with loaded gun is dangerous and people will rush it.  But there is no rule prohibiting holstering a gun safely in the middle of a course of fire and then drawing it again.  You used the term "safety officer" which is an IDPA term, and while I haven't shot IDPA in a long time (like 10 years), I couldn't find any rule in the rulebook prohibiting holstering on the clock.  It was born out of USPSA though, and I don't know why they'd deviate.

For example, USPSA rule 2.2.2.4 makes it illegal to require a shooter to holster in order to traverse an obstacle.  "Competitors must not be required to holster their handgun before ascending these obstacles."  If it was unsafe gun handling to holster on the clock, there would be no reason to have a rule requiring a stage to be built in a manner that allows competitors to get to the shooting without having to holster.  That said, in decades of doing this, I've only infrequently ever seen someone holster a gun on the clock.  The only example I can think of where someone might want to do that is someone who is disabled, he might have to holster to push his own wheelchair, or to open a door for example if the shooter only had the use of one arm.  Although it's slow, there's nothing illegal about someone having to do that.

Which is why they have Rule 8.2.5: "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a hand gun after the start signal.  However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1."

For a 1911, that means safety applied when holstering, and for all competitors, they must use a holster that covers the trigger.

[Flying W Ramrod]

2 hours ago, El Chapo said:

All of them.  It's just not common because it's slow, and it cannot be required because competitive holstering with loaded gun is dangerous and people will rush it.  But there is no rule prohibiting holstering a gun safely in the middle of a course of fire and then drawing it again.  You used the term "safety officer" which is an IDPA term, and while I haven't shot IDPA in a long time (like 10 years), I couldn't find any rule in the rulebook prohibiting holstering on the clock.  It was born out of USPSA though, and I don't know why they'd deviate.

For example, USPSA rule 2.2.2.4 makes it illegal to require a shooter to holster in order to traverse an obstacle.  "Competitors must not be required to holster their handgun before ascending these obstacles."  If it was unsafe gun handling to holster on the clock, there would be no reason to have a rule requiring a stage to be built in a manner that allows competitors to get to the shooting without having to holster.  That said, in decades of doing this, I've only infrequently ever seen someone holster a gun on the clock.  The only example I can think of where someone might want to do that is someone who is disabled, he might have to holster to push his own wheelchair, or to open a door for example if the shooter only had the use of one arm.  Although it's slow, there's nothing illegal about someone having to do that.

Which is why they have Rule 8.2.5: "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a hand gun after the start signal.  However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1."

For a 1911, that means safety applied when holstering, and for all competitors, they must use a holster that covers the trigger.

No so. IPSC, IDPA, use only pistols and don't holster. Modern 3 Gun allow reholstering pistol until it is shot dry then it must be place in the bucket, and remain in the bucket until cleared.

No other shooting sport allows reholstering a pistol once the pistol is no longer used.

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

No so. IPSC, IDPA, use only pistols and don't holster. Modern 3 Gun allow reholstering pistol until it is shot dry then it must be place in the bucket, and remain in the bucket until cleared.

No other shooting sport allows reholstering a pistol once the pistol is no longer used.

Wrong.  IPSC is just the international version of USPSA, the rules are the same and even numbered the same.  Not only is it not prohibited, the rule explicitly says it's okay if done safely:

8.2.5 "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the Start Signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1."
 

IDPA, I was unable to find any rule prohibiting holstering on the clock upon review.  I am not and have never been an IDPA SO, but it was born out of USPSA, so unless there was a reason to prohibit it, they probably just didn't.

3 gun is all outlaw these days, although all of it started with USPSA rules, and it sounds like you recognize that holstering is generally legal there.

Steel Challenge involves literally holstering your loaded gun dozens of times per match.  It also does not prohibit holstering on the clock, although I can't think of any reason you'd want to. 

It looks like we're the last one left drawing empty guns and prohibiting holstering.  Although I haven't shot ICORE in a while so maybe they have a rule I haven't reviewed.

I'm not aware of the existence of any other dynamic, athletic shooting sports.  But so far all of them say that holstering is perfectly safe, even though it sounds like you weren't aware.

The rule change that would be necessary for us to do this safely is that holsters would have to cover the trigger 100%.  But virtually every other handgun shooting sport requires that as well.  And I'd gladly buy a new holster to not have to draw an empty gun on the clock.  Anyone who comes from another sport and sees us carrying Israeli carry is going to be seriously put off by what they see.  It may not seem like that now in this community, but let me tell you, I came from the other one, and we didn't carry empty guns to the line.

[Flying W Ramrod]

These are all holstering a "ready" gun, not a gun shot dry.

Guns shot dry are not re-holstered.

[El Chapo]

2 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

These are all holstering a "ready" gun, not a gun shot dry.

Guns shot dry are not re-holstered.

They might be holstering either one depending on the circumstances.

Ideally, a gun is never shot dry in an action shooting sport.

[Happy Jack]

I shot IPSC before there was a USPSA and one of the very few CHARTER LIFE members of IDPA still around. I agree 100% with EL Chapo. Most people don't know the rules and the reasoning behind them.  

[Flying W Ramrod]

9 hours ago, El Chapo said:

They might be holstering either one depending on the circumstances.

Ideally, a gun is never shot dry in an action shooting sport.

At the END of the pistol shooting string(s), the pistol is discarded, not holstered. And only holstered when cleared by the appropriate person.

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

At the END of the pistol shooting string(s), the pistol is discarded, not holstered. And only holstered when cleared by the appropriate person.

Two people have now explained to you that there is no rule prohibiting safe holstering during a course of fire.  The explicit text of the rules have been posted here and shown to you. 

The rules also prohibit requiring holstering on the clock because it's slow.  Which is why those dump barrels exist.  If a person were to safely holster instead of using one, the worse that would happen is a procedural error; it is not any kind of unsafe gun handling penalty.

[Flying W Ramrod]

2 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Two people have now explained to you that there is no rule prohibiting safe holstering during a course of fire.  The explicit text of the rules have been posted here and shown to you. 

The rules also prohibit requiring holstering on the clock because it's slow.  Which is why those dump barrels exist.  If a person were to safely holster instead of using one, the worse that would happen is a procedural error; it is not any kind of unsafe gun handling penalty.

AGAIN, during course of fire, not at end of string. Apples and Oranges.

At the END of the pistol shooting, the pistol MAY NOT BE HOLSTERED.

 

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

AGAIN, during course of fire, not at end of string. Apples and Oranges.

At the END of the pistol shooting, the pistol MAY NOT BE HOLSTERED.

The course of fire ends with the words "range is clear."

If your gun isn't in your holster, the RO shouldn't say those words. But if he does, and the course of fire is over, and the gun is NOT in your holster, with limited exception, it's a match DQ for unsafe gun handling.

So also wrong again.

Maybe I should say this: if you think you know what you're talking about, or even if you're sure you know what you're talking about, cite the rule that supports your assertion.  Because thus far, literally every claim you have made in this thread is verifiably false by simply looking at the rules, and obviously so to anyone who has taken an RO course in any of these sports.

BTW, if you were done shooting and holstered your gun safely, the only thing it'd cause is the RO to ask you to unload and show clear.  There is no rule that says your gun has to be in your hand when those words are uttered.  So you're absolutely wrong about that part.  The shooting is over in that case, but the course of fire is not.  And like every other part of the course of fire between "make ready" and "range is clear," it is absolutely legal to holster your gun in the correct ready condition.  So in that case, it'd be "no call."  But for this, you don't even know the reason you're wrong.  You're wrong because the course of fire isn't over yet, so it is governed by the same Rule 8.2.5 discussed above.

Holstering your gun (safely) is not a crime. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:59 AM by El Chapo

[Eyesa]

22 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Ideally, a gun is never shot dry in an action shooting sport.

Please explain this sentence for a newbie me! Don't we always shoot our guns dry/empty. Or am I misunderstanding "dry"?

[El Chapo]

3 hours ago, Eyesa said:

Please explain this sentence for a newbie me! Don't we always shoot our guns dry/empty. Or am I misunderstanding "dry"?

In other action shooting sports, except IDPA, which penalizes dropping loaded magazines, competitors will replace the magazine in their gun before it it is empty so that they don't have to cycle the slide to get back to shooting.  Tenths of seconds can make the difference in winning or losing a 12 stage match, and shooting the gun to slide lock is much slower.  The only time you will see a serious competitor shoot a gun empty is if he has made a mistake.  At that point, the competitor has made such a serious error that the stage is a total loss, it's just a matter of doing the best you can at that point.  Since the game is shot in shooting positions of no more than 8 shots per position or view, even a single stack .45 1911 has 8+1 rounds, so there will still be the last round in the chamber when the person hits their reload.  And in the other divisions, the guns can have much higher capacity, some up to 27-28 rounds, so there would be no reason unless someone has really screwed up that the gun would ever be empty.

It is not only common to not shoot the gun empty, but also to modify guns so that they don't lock back when empty.  The reason for this is to avoid the possible reliability issues that come from the lock back function (e.g., I just got a new 2011 that likes to lock back with 1 round left in the magazine, so I will be installing followers without the lock back function when I get around to tuning the magazines to make them work).

[Eyesa]

El Chapo,

Thank you for the excellent explanation. Makes total sense. 

EH