SASS Ranger Category

[Boggus Deal]

• Starting in 2019, we had three years of double digit growth at our State WB matches, then all the rule change rumblings started and we've been down shooters ever since. I know this is localized data, but it is consistent in the adjacent state matches I've shot.

 

Winter Range/EOT sold out every year even with an ever increasing cap until last year. For the past two years, it has not filled up. 

[CC Moonshine]

12 hours ago, Artemus said:

• If the rules are in the TG's hands and every WB TG meeting that has occurred had overwhelming support of a 150PF, why don't we put it to a vote and put it to bed. 
• Starting in 2019, we had three years of double digit growth at our State WB matches, then all the rule change rumblings started and we've been down shooters ever since. I know this is localized data, but it is consistent in the adjacent state matches I've shot.
• I'm from the "Show-Me" state and I really need someone to show me the data to back up this membership change. The size of matches, both CB and WB do not reflect this change. 
• As discussed in the EoT TG meeting if the low PF was a non-isssue then EoT should have felt comfortable running rifle last. Their rifle speed matches and other testing have not provided that comfort. CC I know your range is a lot like ours with most of the stages being covered/enclosed and maybe that's the difference vs the wide open at Ben Avery. If they aren't comfortable running rifle last at the World Championship, I don't feel like it's put to bed.
• We don't need a category just for those that make PF. Even with this, it would not fix the rifle not last issue unless you have category specific stage instructions.
• Our club has had zero participation with 38 rifles. I know this has had a few additional shooters at larger matches. However for the most part I have seen about half or more of the 38 shooters come from the existing WB shooter pool.

 

 

Hi Artemus,

It is in the TG's hands and it will have a vote in the fall, just like the process dictates. There are still many clubs attempting to get their programs fired up for 2025 (spring is just starting) they will need time to have some matches, add members, pick TG's, and ask questions. Plus the process is the process, nothing should be rushed. I predict an additional dozen or more TGs/ clubs will come on board by mid summer. I guess it is perspective regarding the reaction in the TG meetings, and I've been in a ton of them, but there are questions brought by some and discussion takes place regarding power factor but it far from a one sided issue, I think it's actually more of a minority that want it back for all categories. As for your matches in 2019 please provide the numbers, double digit growth is outstanding, but I also, don't understand how rule changes effected it in any way (nothing was taken away or prevented in the rules from what you could do during double digit growth). 

As far as the data, I'm not sure what more you are looking for but in a nutshell 2019- 2024 there were only 20-24 verified clubs shooting WB as matches ( not talking side match events). Now there are 55-65+ (I haven't checked the number in a few weeks) that are set up, with TG's and dates for matches, there are several states setting up their first WB sanctioned matches, clubs adding WB to their monthly CAS match before or after, and some going all in with a dedicated day for WB (such as ours starting in May), along with several clubs exploring options for their clubs. As for match sizes, don't grab at the fools gold in the numbers attending matches, I can guarantee that match attendance numbers have 90% to with the perceived value of the customer and 10% economic. If they or someone they know attended a match that was excellent then they will return and tell friends, if they perceived the match as not the value or level of entertainment they expected, they don't return. Landrun is sold out for CAS and has a record number signed up for WB ( last I heard was around 120) with 5 months to go.

A match directors choice (at EOT or any match) to do or not do something is not a barometer but rather a pure preference. The data is clear, my testing to my satisfaction, the manufactures, and other shooting sports end with rifle all the way down to .22.   Florida State a few weeks ago, I ran the timer a lot, in close quarter bays, some bays even shared stage areas (2 posses shooting side by side in one bay) and again I captured 100% of all shots fired for every single shooter I timed (roughly, I timed almost 2,000+/- shots that weekend and missed picking up ZERO shots), For almost 2 years (as a T.O. at every match, every training event, and practice days for customers at our store)  I have made it a mission to time properly and test the theory, the rifle last issue is completely dead to me. There is no issue with RIFLE LAST.  No reasonable or facts based argument can be made that say rifle can't be last, to much testing has been done in the industry, by many other sports, and by other SASS members and myself that debunk any notation that anything except improper operation of the timer (human error) is the only option.

If you want PF because you want PF, just say so, it's not a crime, it's an opinion, but no more claims are valid at this point that it is unreliable to allow rifle last, improper operation of a timer is no different then a distracted spotter (replace them in their duty).

A high PF is for some and not for others but forcing those that don't want it will drive attendance and participation the wrong direction.

• Our Gun Shop also manufactures ammunition, we offer a cowboy .38 load(110 grain) it tests around 100 PF, people love it, we sell a lot of it. We will not add another load or alter the load we currently make in .38. 
• Our store sells reloading supplies, we carry lots of options and our # 1 seller is 9mm (115 grn) bullet, #2 is the 110 grn .38, #3 is 105 grn .38, we stopped stocking 158 grn .38, very few want it anymore.
• Just from our sales data you can see that shooters want a smooth easy shooting round and enjoy it.
• If a 150 PF is reinstated for all rifle, our club will end WB just like we did in 2012 because 85% of our shooters shoot a .38 and just use their CAS ammo. I can stay with confidence that we will slide right back to where we were prior. A huge number at EOT, Florida, and several other matches are seeing at least 3 to 1 for the use of .38 and I'm sure very few would come close to a 150 PF.
• Forcing CAS shooters to add an additional "new load" to their schedule just for rifle of reloading and supplies will absolutely kill WB.

The logical answer if Power Factor is a push for some ( remember it's only for preference, not for rifle last, testing is complete on that topic) then add a category for big boom or high power factor. Easy as that. It accommodates everyone without infringing on anyone's fun. 

Have a great week,

CC

 

 

[El Chapo]

On 4/19/2025 at 6:27 PM, Artemus said:

• Our club has had zero participation with 38 rifles. I know this has had a few additional shooters at larger matches. However for the most part I have seen about half or more of the 38 shooters come from the existing WB shooter pool.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here.

It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. 

It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle.

On 4/18/2025 at 12:11 PM, CC Moonshine said:

I don't disagree with you about the love of 1911's and other shooting sports. . SASS continues to market to all shooters of any sport. Misty has several advertising deals with national open distribution, We will be setting up next week at the NRA Convention in Atlanta, Ruby Ruthless and a team of SASS members just did the huge Pennsylvania Great American Outdoor show with the SASS booth, we will be doing the Red Dead Redemption event in Tombstone later this year also. So SASS is still marketing in several directions but the WB focus approach is for CAS members to easily transition to try WB, by larger participation by CAS members in WB it also becomes more attractive to outsiders when there are more people involved.

None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking.  You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport.

Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

[El Chapo]

On 4/19/2025 at 6:27 PM, Artemus said:

• Our club has had zero participation with 38 rifles. I know this has had a few additional shooters at larger matches. However for the most part I have seen about half or more of the 38 shooters come from the existing WB shooter pool.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here.

It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. 

It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle.

On 4/18/2025 at 12:11 PM, CC Moonshine said:

I don't disagree with you about the love of 1911's and other shooting sports. . SASS continues to market to all shooters of any sport. Misty has several advertising deals with national open distribution, We will be setting up next week at the NRA Convention in Atlanta, Ruby Ruthless and a team of SASS members just did the huge Pennsylvania Great American Outdoor show with the SASS booth, we will be doing the Red Dead Redemption event in Tombstone later this year also. So SASS is still marketing in several directions but the WB focus approach is for CAS members to easily transition to try WB, by larger participation by CAS members in WB it also becomes more attractive to outsiders when there are more people involved.

None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking.  You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport.

Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

[El Chapo]

On 4/19/2025 at 6:27 PM, Artemus said:

• Our club has had zero participation with 38 rifles. I know this has had a few additional shooters at larger matches. However for the most part I have seen about half or more of the 38 shooters come from the existing WB shooter pool.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here.

It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. 

It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle.

On 4/18/2025 at 12:11 PM, CC Moonshine said:

I don't disagree with you about the love of 1911's and other shooting sports. . SASS continues to market to all shooters of any sport. Misty has several advertising deals with national open distribution, We will be setting up next week at the NRA Convention in Atlanta, Ruby Ruthless and a team of SASS members just did the huge Pennsylvania Great American Outdoor show with the SASS booth, we will be doing the Red Dead Redemption event in Tombstone later this year also. So SASS is still marketing in several directions but the WB focus approach is for CAS members to easily transition to try WB, by larger participation by CAS members in WB it also becomes more attractive to outsiders when there are more people involved.

None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking.  You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport.

Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

[Burt the Undertaker]

I love wild bunch. Been competing in it for 11 years. All my rifles are 44-45cal, never owned a 38cal, never wanted to. But now with the 38cal mouse fart loads being used, I will likely have to buy a new rifle and reloading setup just to try to stay competitive.

Power factor and the faster speed of cycling the 38's are my issues. Running a rifle up to a couple of seconds faster, per stage, adds up in a big match....

A seperate category for 38cal mild bunch could be made. Maybe even add 9mm 1911's to it....

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Hey, Mortman;

I know that Wild Bunch matches are few and far between here in CA.  Next Thursday, 04/01/25, the State Championship at Cajon will be featuring a 4 stage Wild Bunch Side match.  Ambs Aces runs a monthly up in the San Luis Obispo area, once a month.  I've made it up there and it was worth the drive; a good, fun match.

Hope to see you at the range!

Cheers,

FJT