What to you is the essence of Wild Bunch and what would you like to see changed?

[Doc Holloman]

So, the word from Land Run is that the Territorial Governors are discussing what rule changes should be made to fine tune the revamped Wild Bunch program, with changes to be voted on and implemented next year (if I have that wrong, feel free to correct me.)

In hopes of assisting that discussion  I’d like to throw out a couple of questions to hopefully a decent cross section of WB shooters.  To do this, I am posting this on three different forums (fora?) 

(Note:  I will post my own answers, but as separate posts from the questions.)

First:  What do you think makes Wild Bunch different from Cowboy shooting and that needs to be preserved? (What, if lost, would spoil Wild Bunch for you?  What elements or characteristics constitute the essence of Wild Bunch to you?   What would you tell the folks looking at the rules ‘Don’t touch this!’?)

Second:  What Rule changes would you like to see made?

 

Hopefully we can get some useful response  that might come to the attention of the powers that be.

[Doc Holloman]

First question (What is important to me in Wild Bunch?)

1. MOVEMENT! Multiple target arrays for pistol. Multiple reloads. Pistol arrays at different distances within a stage. Movement with the shotgun.

2. Variety. Target arrays that are not just straight lines shot in predicable sweeps. Geometric patterns (Ts, Ls, Xs, Y, Chevrons). Different round counts from stage to stage. Some stages no rifle, some no shotgun. Some stages putting a premium on pistol marksmanship, some placing the emphasis on quick mag changes.

3. Difficulty: WB should be more difficult than CAS. With CAS clubs setting a standard that ¼ or 1/3 of shooters should be shooting clean matches, I don’t think we  want Wild Bunch devolving into that with 24x24 targets at 4 yards.

 

Second question: (Rule changes I would like to see)

1, Allow 20 gauge Model 12 shotguns (as we now allow 20 gauge side by sides – the 97 was never made in 20 gauge)

2. In the Modern Class, allow rubber magazine baseplate bumpers. I don’t see a competitive advantage and allows more people to use what they have. Consider allowing Commander length guns in Modern.

3. Eliminate the max weight for the Modern class 1911. A lot of off the shelf pistols are an ounce or two over the limit and the other restrictions should still keep the race guns out.

4. Allow GI style shoulder holsters. (OK, I can dream) True to the movie,and shoulder holsters are allowed in Cowboy. The 170- rule would still apply. Actually probably safer than in Cowboy because of the need to rack the slide on the 1911.

5. In BAMM/Doughboy, allow 1945 or earlier rifles that have been rechambered by a military to a different caliber. This would allow Norwegian or South American 98K Mausers rechambered to .30-06, Indian Enfields rechambered to 7.62 or Israeli Mausers rechambered to 7.62. Of course, lead bullets would still be required. (.30-06 and 7.62 brass are a lot easier  to find and cheaper than 8mm Mauser. )

 

 

[Deacon KC]

1 hour ago, Doc Holloman said:

First question (What is important to me in Wild Bunch?)

1. MOVEMENT! Multiple target arrays for pistol. Multiple reloads. Pistol arrays at different distances within a stage. Movement with the shotgun.

2. Variety. Target arrays that are not just straight lines shot in predicable sweeps. Geometric patterns (Ts, Ls, Xs, Y, Chevrons). Different round counts from stage to stage. Some stages no rifle, some no shotgun. Some stages putting a premium on pistol marksmanship, some placing the emphasis on quick mag changes.

3. Difficulty: WB should be more difficult than CAS. With CAS clubs setting a standard that ¼ or 1/3 of shooters should be shooting clean matches, I don’t think we  want Wild Bunch devolving into that with 24x24 targets at 4 yards.

 

Second question: (Rule changes I would like to see)

1, Allow 20 gauge Model 12 shotguns (as we now allow 20 gauge side by sides – the 97 was never made in 20 gauge)

2. In the Modern Class, allow rubber magazine baseplate bumpers. I don’t see a competitive advantage and allows more people to use what they have. Consider allowing Commander length guns in Modern.

3. Eliminate the max weight for the Modern class 1911. A lot of off the shelf pistols are an ounce or two over the limit and the other restrictions should still keep the race guns out.

4. Allow GI style shoulder holsters. (OK, I can dream) True to the movie,and shoulder holsters are allowed in Cowboy. The 170- rule would still apply. Actually probably safer than in Cowboy because of the need to rack the slide on the 1911.

5. In BAMM/Doughboy, allow 1945 or earlier rifles that have been rechambered by a military to a different caliber. This would allow Norwegian or South American 98K Mausers rechambered to .30-06, Indian Enfields rechambered to 7.62 or Israeli Mausers rechambered to 7.62. Of course, lead bullets would still be required. (.30-06 and 7.62 brass are a lot easier  to find and cheaper than 8mm Mauser. )

 

 

Doc, I like all your ideas, I will add these:

1, Continue to allow .38 rifles, but put a minimum Power Factor in. No Mouse Phart Loads.

2. Open the handguns back up to allow Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917s etc.

 

[Whitey James]

Agree with keeping it more difficult. Shooting rifle targets with pistols, moving targets like Texas Stars etc. make it more challenging.

I haven't been shooting it long enough to want to make any changes. I just don't think I would like it as much if it were all about speed at very close targets.

[El Diablo Gringo]

Howdy Doc,

I agree with all your points and would like to add a small item from my wish list- starting cocked and locked rather than having to rack the slide. 
Gringo

[trooper]

All good thoughts so far.  And besides the Condition One start, movement with the pistol in any condition would be fine by me too. (Full disclosure, I also shoot IPSC! 😄)  A reasonable PF for 38 Rifles for sure... 125? Its pretty standard elsewhere..         TOTALLY agree with allowing WWII rifles rechambered to other SUITABLE calibres... I think of that as an "Internal modification" LOL

[Sedalia Dave]

Set and enforce a minimum target distance. Some clubs have targets at 3 to 4 feet from the muzzle. That's way too close no matter how the steel is set for WB loads.

Stages should be a variety of distances, target arrangements, shooting order.

Keep the movement. 

Stay out of the 10, 10, 4 rut that has become SASS. Encourage stages that only use two guns vice three, stages with a SG or Rifle reload.

Clean WB stages shouldn't be the norm

Minimum PF for rifle rounds. (125)

Allow Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917s etc.

On 10/19/2024 at 10:39 AM, Doc Holloman said:

5. In BAMM/Doughboy, allow 1945 or earlier rifles that have been rechambered by a military to a different caliber. This would allow Norwegian or South American 98K Mausers rechambered to .30-06, Indian Enfields rechambered to 7.62 or Israeli Mausers rechambered to 7.62. Of course, lead bullets would still be required. (.30-06 and 7.62 brass are a lot easier  to find and cheaper than 8mm Mauser. )

 

[Tennessee River]

The change allowing 38SPL is good, but I would also stretch the shotgun requirements. Add ANY PUMP shotgun with wood & metal hardware and traditional sights. No plastics and no deer sights. There is nothing in the above that detracts from the spirit of WB nor gives anyone a competitive advantage. 

[Whitey James]

2 hours ago, Tennessee River said:

The change allowing 38SPL is good, but I would also stretch the shotgun requirements. Add ANY PUMP shotgun with wood & metal hardware and traditional sights. No plastics and no deer sights. There is nothing in the above that detracts from the spirit of WB nor gives anyone a competitive advantage. 

I would like to hear the argument against it. I can't think of an advantage off the top of my head.

[Ranger Dan]

The combination of guns used for WB is what I like most. The 1911, lever action rifle, and the venerable Winchester model 97 shotgun "stoked" makes WB for me.

Stages with no rifle or no shotgun totally misses it for me, the combination of guns and transitions is what makes it fun. A pistol only stage is just bullseye shooting, and that already exists elsewhere. There are tons of combinations that keep it interesting with 2,3,or4 magazines, exceeding four mags on a stage usually is doing the same sequence again, and again. I like combination rifle pistol sequences.

The allowing 38 rifles is a great addition to WB. At this time I see no need to up the power factor. Knock down targets will cure that. Timers picking up the 38s can and is done all the time. The only firearm I have not been able to time is a suppressed .22. TO you need to get closer regardless which firearm is last to ensure you get the last shot. There is no rule saying "rifle not last" unless there is some type of obstruction (window doorway) that prevents the TO from getting a little closer to the gun, allow rifle last.

Target distance and size always seems to come up in these discussions. This is totally on the range officials and what they have to work with. Remember who your shooters are! Dumping 7 on 3 big targets at close range is "meh" for me, but my wife gets a kick out of it and if you transition to 15 yard smaller targets on the same stage, you have something for everyone. WB doesn't need everything big and close, but there is nothing better for the sport than a grinning shooter coming off the line cuz he/she had fun mag dumping on an easy target.

[Doc Holloman]

This same inquiry was posted  in the Facebook group (SASS) Wild Bunch Action Shooting, and has gotten quite  bit of discussion there.   It was also posted on CAS City but with limited response. 

[El Chapo]

Round count instead of sweeps

 

Raise power factor for pistol and rifle

 

All wood stock pumps should be allowed

 

I like the idea of plastic basepads

[Marshal5]

I am not one for creating an infinite numbers of shooting classes. Attend EOT or Land Run and see the vast number of awards  but, it seems that there are more and more older shooters. I would like to see Senior class dropped to age 60 and an elder class at age 70.

Keep the no make up rule on shotgun. The easiest target on a stage is the shotgun if you miss it is your loss.

 

 

[ethan callahan]

My opinion is that we should have the option to make up shot gun "misses" or hits that don't cause the shotgun targets to go down.  If you don't want to make them up then you have the option not to.  No one is going to force you to make up a shotgun target. It was brought up at Land Run not by me and I agreed that shotgun makeup should be allowed again.  Yes again, shotgun makeups were allowed in my region when wild bunch first came out over 14+ years ago at all our local, state and regional match.  Then it was changed, just like the magazines changes going to 7 instead of 5 or setting the age to a Senior category at 65.  Wild bunch was also being shot as a category during the cowboy shoots at several matches in the early days back then.  This was why 5 in a mag was the norm back then so people could shoot Wild Bunch during a cowboy match because there were few if any WB matches out there in the early years in my area.   

Some shooters like to have less misses for the match even if it takes them longer to make up the targets than it would be to take the 5 second penalty.  

We have all seen some bad targets out there whether bad design or bad angles depending on the shooters position or height of the shooter etc...   

Also those that shoot State or Regional Wild Bunch Mini matches one day then shoot the cowboy match the next day have to break the habit of the day before on whether to make up or not make up the targets the rules need to be the same to avoid confusion or potential issues for those that shoot both matches back to back. 

Another reason that I think that we should have the option on making up shotgun targets is that F-word it is Fun to blast away as fast as you can with 6 shots from a pump and not have to worry about getting a 5 second penalty for a miss when you have the option to reload.  Let the slam fire begin.

 

It was also brought up at Land Run by a TG not me about changing the ages of the categories to match CAS.  Senior for cowboy is 60 and senior for wild bunch is 65.  I have heard about a 60 year old shooting SENIOR in wild bunch because they did not know there was a difference between the two types of shoots and no one ever really checks for age at local or state matches.  Eliminate the confusion and stop having 64 yr olds shoot against 18 yr olds in a category.  Many people complain about oh too many categories but when your aging shooting population in CAS and Wild Bunch is over 60 there needs to be more protected categories such as Senior at 60, a protected category for 70 and 80. I am not opposed to 49er also.  In 2010, when I shot my first wild bunch EOT in New Mexico the categories offered where different that what was offered at the state level in 2010 just like the shotgun makeups.  https://www.wolverinerangers.org/pdf/RW2001-Present/RW2010WildBunchCAT.pdf   in 2010, for example there was a 59er category used at the state wild bunch side match.  In then in 2011 until 2020 there was only traditional or modern. Senior categories showed up in 2021 in our state side match.  If States, Regionals, Nationals or EOT want to break it down to even 5 yr increments if they have 5+,10+ shooters in a category and award a silver senior award then I am good with that as well but it is up to the match to go beyond the protected categories.  (49, 60, 70, 80)  I personally like having a youth protected category for those under 16? or whatever mirrors SASS even if they shoot .22 cal 1911 and rifle.  I really don't see why people complain about more people winning and also shooting against people in their own age bracket.  Men's and Women's would both have the same protected classes.  If the cost of awards is the complaint at the State level then maybe increase shooter fees or instead of buckles or expensive awards switch to plaques etc...  I personally believe that the 3 more protected categories would increase participation.  People like finishing higher in their categories and they like a shot to win their category that they might not of had under the current categories.  For example, we had a 65 yr old shooting against an 85 year old in the Senior class at a State Match I was at.  So instead of finishing dead last in the senior class the 85 year old would of won the 80+ class.  That makes more sense to me and I think it is morally the right thing to do as I would guess the bulk of the shooters are over 50 or maybe 60 now.  I am no where near 60 but why not promote and recognizing more of our senior citizens with more opportunities for awards for them.  More happy people is better for growing the sport of Wild Bunch.  

This is just my opinion, as a wild bunch shooter of 15 years or so going from different State, Regional, National and EOT matches.   As a current TG, I have already talked to those that I represent after the Land Run meeting and I would vote to allow the option of shotgun makeups if this makes the list to vote on next year.  They are also on board with protecting more categories.  

[Boomstick Bruce]

Leave Traditional 40cal or bigger with 150 PF... Modern can have all the 38 mouse farts and race guns they want...

[marshal stone]

48 minutes ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

Leave Traditional 40cal or bigger with 150 PF... Modern can have all the 38 mouse farts and race guns they want...

That's something to consider.

Marshal Stone

[denton Dancer]

As I am one of the old folks shooting traditional the current two brackets are ok with me. I would not like being the only one in my category just to win by default.

[Whitey James]

I think this is a good idea. Strikes a balance between Modern and Traditional besides just shooting one handed. Kinda like Classic Cowboy and B-Western