cocked 1911 at loading table

[TriggerHappy]

I was asked the question at our last match, if it was permissible to have 1911 cocked/holstered upon leaving loading table heading to the firing line. My answer was no, all hammers on all firearms must be down on an empty chamber or safety notch., reference Match Director's Handbook Ver. 15 2022, page 15, loading table officer's duties. If, however, the 1911 is cocked and shooter leaves loading table to stage firearms, and the TO or others notice the cocked 1911, can the shooter correct the error, under TO instructions, draw-point and pull the trigger, as might be done with same situation with the rifle, then if no bang, re-holster and continue with a no-call. Or if a big bang, then assess the penalty- SDQ.  I'm not finding the answer in the shooter's handbook loading table directions for the 1911, on page 9 of the shooter's handbook, to verify hammer down.  

[Garrison Joe]

I would be inclined to treat the 1911 as we do any other firearm, since the handbook does not have a special rule just for this situation.   And I would not encourage anyone to ADD a new rule just for this situation.  Why make things more complicated?

good luck, GJ

[Tully Mars]

The 1911 is treated just like a revolver in Cowboy. If the hammer is back when the shooter comes to the line, it's a SDQ. One qualifier for long guns is, "in hands", which is seen as the shooter has control of the gun or guns. Once the shooter stages the long guns and removes their hands, the SDQ is applied. The pistol has left the shooters hands once it was holstered and the shooter has left the loading table. It can only be corrected at the loading table.

This would be an excellent update for the WB RO course, as it's not cover, or at least to my recollection.

Tully

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

I don’t see a requirement in the Handbook that the 1911 hammer be at rest at the LT.

The rule for movement with the pistol requires only that the chamber be empty.  The slide can be open or closed.  I don’t see a penalty for a movement with cocked hammer on a pistol.

I looked at the WB RO/MD Handbook.  I don’t think it leads to a different conclusion.  In some places it contradicts the Handbook.  For example, it refers to “loaded” firearms in a way that is inconsistent with the Handbook’s definition of a “loaded” firearm which is a firearm with a live round in the CHAMBER.

I’m not recommending that shooters begin the stage with a cocked hammer on the holstered or staged pistol.  I just want requirements to be clear before we hand out penalties.

Someone asked recently whether it was legal for a shooter who had difficulty charging a 1911 to draw the pistol, thumb back the hammer and then rack the slide.  I said yes, and I believe that is correct, but the way the Handbook is written it may be legal for a shooter to cock the hammer at the LT (assuming the chamber is empty).  If that is not the intended result the Handbook should be revised.

[Tully Mars]

1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

I’m not recommending that shooters begin the stage with a cocked hammer on the holstered or staged pistol.  I just want requirements to be clear before we hand out penalties.

Someone asked recently whether it was legal for a shooter who had difficulty charging a 1911 to draw the pistol, thumb back the hammer and then rack the slide.  I said yes, and I believe that is correct, but the way the Handbook is written it may be legal for a shooter to cock the hammer at the LT (assuming the chamber is empty).  If that is not the intended result the Handbook should be revised.

You won't find it in the rule book, but nowhere in SASS, Cowboy or WB do we start with the hammer back, other than hammered doubles that are open and empty. Safety notches on long guns are ok in WB, not Cowboy. Yes the rule book should reflect the hammer on the 1911. 

The rule is same as a long gun with the action closed and hammer back leaving the shooters hands at the beginning of a stage, it's a SDQ. Pistols may be corrected at the loading table, not once a person has left the LT. 

Regarding cocking the hammer to easy the racking of the slide, that's perfectly legal.

Tully

[Flying W Ramrod]

3 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

I don’t see a requirement in the Handbook that the 1911 hammer be at rest at the LT.

The rule for movement with the pistol requires only that the chamber be empty.  The slide can be open or closed.  I don’t see a penalty for a movement with cocked hammer on a pistol.

I looked at the WB RO/MD Handbook.  I don’t think it leads to a different conclusion.  In some places it contradicts the Handbook.  For example, it refers to “loaded” firearms in a way that is inconsistent with the Handbook’s definition of a “loaded” firearm which is a firearm with a live round in the CHAMBER.

I’m not recommending that shooters begin the stage with a cocked hammer on the holstered or staged pistol.  I just want requirements to be clear before we hand out penalties.

Someone asked recently whether it was legal for a shooter who had difficulty charging a 1911 to draw the pistol, thumb back the hammer and then rack the slide.  I said yes, and I believe that is correct, but the way the Handbook is written it may be legal for a shooter to cock the hammer at the LT (assuming the chamber is empty).  If that is not the intended result the Handbook should be revised.

If you look at the WBSHB, page 10, under "Safe for Re-holstering" it says "Slide closed and hammer down on an empty chamber with no magazine. Only after RO inspection at firing line."

Ensuring the Hammer is Down, in this instance, intimates that the Hammer was down upon reaching the stage.

Also, if it's not spelled out in the WBSHB, refer to the CAS SHB. Page 13 "Six-shot revolvers may be loaded at the loading table with a maximum of five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber."

regards

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

There have been other instances in which the Handbook did not reflect the intention of the drafters.  I suggest this may be one of those times.  The solution is in the pen, so to speak.
 

I’ve been shooting Wild Bunch for about ten years.  I don’t recall ever seeing a shooter leave the LT with a cocked pistol, but should it happen, I want to make the correct call based on the rules.

I understand that when we clear the pistol at the conclusion of the stage that we direct the shooter to pull the trigger to drop the hammer (a final verification that the pistol has been cleared), then to holster the pistol.  I don’t think that provides a basis for a penalty on a subsequent stage.

[Tully Mars]

10 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

I’ve been shooting Wild Bunch for about ten years.  I don’t recall ever seeing a shooter leave the LT with a cocked pistol, but should it happen, I want to make the correct call based on the rules.

 

May be someone else will chime in? However two WB RO instructors, have given the answer. Yes the SHB should reflect it. I suspect the reason it does not, is that the drafters have tried to remove unnecessary items, and this item is just common since. If you shoot Cowboy, what's the call for a hammer back on a revolver? Half notch is mentioned in regards to long guns, only because it was added a few years ago. 

Again, in the process of staging any gun at the beginning of the stage, if the hammer is cocked (fully back), once that gun leaves the shooters hands, it a SDQ. The pistol is in the holster and not in the shooters hands, it's a SDQ. 

Tully

[Sgt Eli]

I believe Shell Stuffer got a SDQ at Winter Range or EOT a few years ago with a hammer back on a 1911. 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

4 hours ago, Sgt Eli said:

I believe Shell Stuffer got a SDQ at Winter Range or EOT a few years ago with a hammer back on a 1911. 

It was a cocked rifle.

 

[Legendary Lawman]

Poor Shell Stuffer.  That's noot something you want to be remembered for? 😀

The Wild Bunch ROC has identified a number of issues with cocked guns that need to be addressed in the rule book.  The 1911 is one that probably needs the most work.  For example, in the WB Handbook, page 10 addresses when it is safe to move with the 1911 and when it is safe to put it down.  At no time is the hammer position mentioned.  If you then go to the cowboy handbook, page 13 says that a cocked revolver may never leave a shooter's hand, including from one hand to the other.  IIn WB, we are always putting our 1911 down cocked.  The obvious difference is what when you finish your last shot with a revolver the hammer is down and when you finish your last shot with the 1911, the hammer is cocked.  They are two different instruments requiring different rules.

SASS is currently working on some rule changes and a number of rule clarications to acknnowledge the differences that WB has versus cowboy.

Another identified area of concern is the rules for putting down a long gun with the intent to re-use it.  The rules only identify long guns in the circumstance but you can only leave them with the action closed on an empty casing or empty chamber.  In WB, we regularly allow a shotgun to be put down open with a round on the carrier.  The rules don't speak to the 1911 but we are aways putting it down open and empty (and cocked) with the intent to re-use it.

Unfortunately, yes, that means the rule books gets a little longer.

A great exchange and thanks for everyone's contribution.