August West

Yup!

Yet!

I recently had occasion to repair a '73 rifle where the shooter had been using polymer coated bullets for a couple of years. There was a hard, almost ceramic-like, build up underneath the extractor. This had gotten to the point where the extractor was no longer reliably grabbing the cartridge rim for extraction. Now, that build up might have been from low power loads, or poor powder choice. But, the nature of the 'gunk' was hard and solid. Not what I've found before with black powder and lead bullets. F.Y.I.

Deconstructing any concept is simple and easy and cerebral compared to the work of assembling (reassembling) the pieces into a coherent whole. Anecdotal remarks about the elements of Wild Bunch, offered by individuals who do not participate in Wild Bunch, have been stated regularly in many forums where where such deconstruction has been entertained. The nature of those remarks hasn't changed over the years -- rifle caliber, magazine capacity, shot string, antique automatic pistols, money, time, the rules. When those issues have been accommodated publicly, at matches, and in discussions, the people who originally made the remarks have been no more inclined to come out and participate than before. The conclusion: such discussions hold no value for enhancing Wild Bunch. On the other hand, building something that is attractive, dependable, and practical is hard work. Making a commitment to regular monthly matches, advertising those matches, supporting the people who participate in those matches, and listening to their reactions and concerns all lead to participation. Not to say the glass is half-full. It's probably more like 20% full. But, that's real and important and positive. There are dedicated Wild Bunch shooters who love this game and want it to continue. The concerns of individuals who cared not to walk through the doorway labeled "Wild Bunch" are of little importance. I feel the discussion on the SASS Wire is ill-advised, leading to more inertia among cowboy shooters, and galvanizing sentiment against Wild Bunch Action Shooting. You asked! There are a thousand reasons to sit on the sofa, rather than participate in a shooting sport. It's not smart to support that thinking.

Thanks JFN for posting this. Nice to be able to see the relationship of things working together. Formerly, had to imagine it.

From your comment, Dusty, I must have mis-spoke. The firearm that was used at our match was a SEMI-AUTO. Sorry that my ignorance caused confusion. (it often does!)

We had a shooter use a Thompson SMG as their match rifle last month. It worked out well. The manual of arms is very similar to the 1911, with the bolt locking open after the last round in the magazine is fired. So, all loading and changing of magazines could be easily monitored for safety. The condition of the arm as it came to the line was monitored in the same way we do the model 12. But, dang that thing is heavy!

IMHO, the stage conventions have really freed up the writer to be more flexible. Not having to say, stage this, re-stage that, move safely, open and empty, etc. makes for more streamlined stage writing. The Grail is to make a stage with shooting challenges and movement that flows using as few words as possible. It's a fun "game" to play when writing stages to try to be simple, using as few words as possible. For example, assuming a set of six target plates, something like this might emerge. Stage gunz anywhere. Use as many gunz as you wish. At buzzer, place six shots on each target. The end. It seems confusion (and subsequent complaint) is largely the result of match directors who continue to specify staging and safety matters that have been completely cleared up by the stage conventions. In other words, if all matches were SASS compliant, and all match directors understood the spirit of the conventions, questions for clarification about stage directions would largely disappear and shooters would assume responsibility for movement, safety, staging, order of engagement, and most other procedures during a course of fire. Flexibility and choice would become the norm. As my colleague, Blaze, always reminds me: "It's supposed to be a gunfight." Little is specified in such situations other than the number of bad guys, shoot straight, be smooth, and go fast.

Legal. Not an external modification. But, if your gun goes down at a match, don't expect much sympathy. You can, however, expect heaps of ridicule.

Abe, I'm curious to know how you concluded the hammer spring was the hitch in your giddy-up. Is your ideal of how smooth you want the gun to be realized when you cycle it with the hammer cocked?

I've used the Ultra Max Remanufactured bulk (250 rounds per box) that Sportsman's Warehouse seems to always have on-hand. It is dimensionally good and I've not had a stoppage with it. It is VERY hot and will wear you down in a six stage match. I keep a box of it around for back-up, but would not choose to use it given my own ammo production being on schedule.

Around our part of the country, 30 round pistol strings are common. That means six magazines, assuming everything works harmoniously. But, of course, Murphy being how he is, seven magazines are minimum for a 30 round stage. So...... four, double magazine pouches are a standard set-up around here. Guys who are in good shape carry eight loaded magazines at all times. While I have four double pouches on my belt, I only carry more than six when the stage calls for 30 rounds. Six, however, is the minimum, normal load-out.

Good gravy GJ, your bullets must be half as long as your barrel at that weight. How long is the throat on a Swedish Mauser? And, BTW, I've been looking for one. After flying 6.5 mm bullets at 1K yards for a few years, I'm a real fan boy of those bullets!!! We have a guy who uses 6.5x55 at 1K and he'll beat you if you slip up.

I hope it's working. I have a match announcement to post later today. I've grown frustrated as this has been going on for a very long time (months) and there are no assurances forthcoming about when or how it will be fixed or who will do the fixin'. I'm uncomfortable bothering the Moderators with this since they have no direct control over the server or the program. But, this problem has made connecting our little band of shooters even more problematic than usual. It seems like a link to the Major Domo for the server would be a good thing to have at the bottom of the page. AW

GJ I have been having this same problem for three months. I've asked for help. Things have occasionally worked, but the problem returns seemingly every time the server goes down (or gets reset, or upgraded, or hacked, or whateverthehell is happening). AW

Well, it depends on what -- exactly -- this means: "The shooter had one round that would not chamber so he ejected it and shot the black targets with 9 rounds (didn't shoot the last target)." If the shooter discovered the "*round that would not chamber*" in the process of pointing the pistol at the target and pulling the trigger, then he ENGAGED all twenty targets in the correct order -- one miss for unfired round. If, however, he discovered the "*round that would not chamber*" before bringing the pistol to the target and pulling the trigger, then he did not ENGAGE the targets correctly, and has a miss for the unfired round -- miss and a "P". Yet, other matters may be important. Where in the shot string did the stoppage occur? For each of the first ten engagements (not fired rounds), which target was he aiming at? Did he engage (not shoot) each target but once? What was the shooter trying to do -- if anything -- to recover? In other words, we don't have enough information about what happened to make a decision.

Your description states he engaged the black targets only. Is that what you meant to say?

And, the complete carrier assembly -- including the flag, spring, and plunger -- is available from Numrich.

O.K. put in a proper lifter with a flag. Ejects great! But, the base of rounds leaving the magazine are hanging up on the front edge of the flag. Advice? Bend? Radius? Smooth? Relieve receiver for flag?

Thanks for posting these observations. Been chasing the "stovepipe" problem on a very late model 12 for almost a year now. Has a serial number in the 1,85x,xxx range. It is a 2 3/4" gun. I figure it's one of the last made (so to speak). This gun, while being well-finished on the outside, shows lots of short-cuts on the inside. Clearly, the broaches were worn out when this gun was cut. The amount of chattering on the inside receiver cuts suggests the tool head (chuck) itself was worn beyond its useful life. In addition to the worn tooling, the lifter does not have the end wall you describe. Rather, it has a 3" type lifter. So, one of the ways Winchester tried to keep up with Remington was by eliminating machining processes that, formerly, had been an important (essential?) part of the design of the gun. In other words, they were selling guns in the end that could not perform up to the same levels as those produced in earlier times. They looked like Model 12s, but only on the outside. It is a stark testament to the force of economics. At any rate, your remarks helped me to see all the time and money installing new extractors and springs, as well as fitting a new ejector were wasted on this gun. None of that work made any difference to the stovepipe situation. And, because of your observations, I now understand why. Hopefully, installing a proper 2 3/4" lifter will do as you say and finally get this gun up and running. I was told early on that a 3" gun would probably not work for WB (and, by proxy, a 2 3/4" gun with a 3" Type lifter). But, I never knew why. I also never suspected compromises that so profoundly affect the operation of the gun were part of the way Winchester did business in the '60s. Again, thanks for sharing your observations. Beware high serial number model 12s.

Along that line (sort of), I noted the other day that VZ is doing the Operator II in carbon fiber for a premium price.

Don't we all?!?!?! Most lead bullets for the .45 a.c.p. cartridge are slightly rebated, or reduced in diameter where the shank turns into the ogive of the bullet. That wider part of the shank has to be completely below the mouth of the cartridge case to ensure the bullet does not contact the rifling upon chambering. A bullet designed for the 45 Long Colt's cartridge will not have this feature and, therefore, will usually not operate consistently in the John Browning Pistol. So, keeping it simple, you'll need two different bullets -- one for the pistol and one for the rifle. Your description of the bullet you have as a LRNFP, suggests it is one designed for use in the Long Colt's cartridge. So, keeping it simple, you'll have to also get some bullets for the a.c.p. Most of us will suggest 230 grain bullets for reasons that are not so simple, so I'll leave it at that. If you'll accept the idea that two different bullets are necessary for your Wild Bunch battery of arms, people will be along shortly with loads using Red Dot with a 230 grain, round nose, .45 a.c.p. bullet. I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. But, the sooner you get over this hump, the sooner you'll have rounds that will support your Wild Bunch shooting and allow you to have fun with us at the range.

Tully: Thanks for posting this and for making the effort to support it with such excellent pictures!!!! Great information, me thinks.

I have found it very easy to place the cut-off lever in the gun incorrectly. This has bitten me (I'm embarrassed to say) more than once. The front edge has to go behind the barrel, in an invisible slot in the receiver, before being dropped into the side of the receiver. I know everyone knows this. But, as I say, it has bitten me more than once. Also, I've found the cut-off lever likes to ride in a substantial pool of oil. Hope my confession helps someone.