Grouchy Spike

The Texas State WB Match is scheduled for 11/4-11/5 at Comanche Valley Vigilantes in Cleburne. Who's planning to participate in this challenging match? I am, so is Judge Hangin Knott!

This is beginning to look as though it is created by the US Congress!

There is some discussion on the SASS wire about BAM Matches: http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263709-bolt-action-military-bam/ Contribute what you can, view to see what's happening in other clubs.

Back 40, good to hear that you enjoy the 'sliding' in WBAS matches! I prefer to slide, but if the choice is revolve or stay home, I'll revolve. More shooting is usually always better except at 90F+, where the mind is willing but the body ain't. So are you gonna promote more club involvement in WBAS matches and side matches? I don't recall your home state, hopefully they have a state WB match in which to play.

I'd say BIG CHANCE of a flying bird from a trap machine, and Goatneck like to launch'em at Mach2. After shooting SGs with 18 1/2, 20, and 23" barrels, the 23" is my preference. Except at Goatnecks birds, then it's 30".

1. Travel requirements and cost 2. Match design Everything else is secondary and likely tolerated or overcome. Repeat business would be determined by the total package. The atmosphere at the TX State Match is created by the characters in the game. There are many great characters are at this match, a pleasure to shoot with!

Kudos to GJ for recruiting another BAMMer!

I can reply to this thread, but not others in this forum, either by phone or laptop. Moderators, Help!

Back 40, the question that I posed in this SASS thread didn't start a prairie fire, more like it started a wave. If you've not stayed abreast of it: http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263411-cowboyscowgirls-what-would-attract-you-to-wild-bunch/

DB, you should have try Garrison Joes 45 ACP recipe of 4.4 gr of WST with that 230 gr bullet in your 1917. ;D It was stout in the M1911! I cut the M1917 load back to 3.7 gr Trail Boss from 4.3 gr TB, much more civilized.

I've tried to post on the Rules forum, receive database error message. Recommendation is to go to admin/support and credits. There I see a message to upgrade from Forum version: SMF 2.0.11 to Current SMF version: SMF 2.0.14 Upgrade the Forum Version? This does NOT seem to be an action that a user should initiate. What's the problem here?

Yes indeed, an unusual powder drop twice (that I know of), and I don't know where in the string of reloads that it happened. The reservoir is half-full of powder too. Before I load again, I'll inspect the powder measure but that 550B has been stroking along without problems since forever. It loads all of the 45ACP, consistent with Trail Boss. These are not coated bullets. I'm saving the coated ones for the important match in November!

Good discussion! "The conclusion: such discussions hold no value for enhancing Wild Bunch." Could be, but I didn't see much happening to stimulate growth and I'm ready to stimulate at least some conversation! Some comments on the SASS wire may be insincere comments and even if overcome the commenter would not play WBAS no matter what. Local WBAS matches can offer an Open Category address the rifle caliber and shotgun type and even gauge, so those objections can be overcome. 5-rounds vs 7-rounds may be debated forever, but that does not seem to be in insurmountable challenge. Start with FIVE! Test interest in seven rounds in a subsequent match. THIS!!! "On the other hand, building something that is attractive, dependable, and practical is hard work. Making a commitment to regular monthly matches, advertising those matches, supporting the people who participate in those matches, and listening to their reactions and concerns all lead to participation. " The comments that address a lack of WB matches are revealing. It's the local interest that will start a WBAS group. Nothing happens otherwise. How to gin up the interest of the club members is now the focus. If the WB requirements are strictly adhered to and the potential market doesn't have the gear and doesn't want to commit money to address it, likely nothing happens. If the requirements are relaxed and some of the reluctant market drags out some safe queens that won't ever meet the requirements, we at least have the reluctant share of the market shooting a game other than CAS and headed toward WBAS. Inviting other potential customers to drag up and shoot a scenario with borrowed weapons can stimulate interest. I'm not addressing the legal liability incurred by the lender in this situation. That's an individual decision. The learning curve on operation of the 1911 particularly in malfunction drills is a poisonous snake in the grass, particularly when coupled with potential ammo problems reloaded by a newbie to reloading 45 acp. I can understand how a newbie would become discouraged. Target distance has not been addressed in many responses. That may be another poisonous snake in the grass because an inexperienced 1911 shooter may have (will have) more misses than in CAS if targets are set further out than CAS targets. Solution - begin with closer targets. It's important that new participants be mentored during this climb up the learning curve. Operation, Maintenance, and light repairs of the 1911 and that often 'praised' 1897, choice and maintenance of 1911 magazines, reloading techniques, practice, shooting techniques, etc must be taught and learned. So not only must WBAS be talked up locally and advertised, the effort may cost money and will cost time to those making the effort to introduce the game or to increase participation. How do we encourage and support those potential disciples who would initiate the local efforts? Some of those are revealing their identities on that SASS thread. As a start, perhaps they could be contacted and mentored through this process of introducing and sustaining WBAS. Perhaps SASS should appoint a WBAS Product Manager to do this? That person may already exist as Happy Jack! If so, how can we support him? I have more questions than answers. But I do have some limited experience. Dusty Boddams, at the 2014 Texas State WB Match, put a BAM rifle and ammo in my hands and said "shoot"! That hooked me. At the home club I talked it up among some cowboys and two cowboys pulled out some old bolts. Then I asked the president about starting a BAM side match, and he agreed. I spent a few rounds of ammo on introductions to others, and since February 2015 the group has grown to seventeen and two clubs are shooting BAM. Even the president showed up with his Mauser to join the group. August West hit the nail on the head about expanding participation! Now comes the propoal - August, can you join the effort to expand participation? Lost Vaquero, you may be a newbie on a soapbox but you also have The Vision. Can you join the effort too? Send me a PM, let's exchange email addresses and make something happen. And that invitation is extended to anyone else who want to make something happen. I have only a rudimentary plan, but I have a vision! Happy Jack, chime in.

Ha Ha! GJ that 4.4 grain load WAS hot! I was thinking that you must have tougher hands that I do, because even my support hand was hurting. Through the chrono, the MV was 725 fps with 4.4 grains WST. I'd cross-checked your recommendation with Lymans Cast Bullet and 48th Manual, saw that the max load for a 225gr cast bullet was 4.7grains WST so 4.4 didn't seem out of line for a 230. I also loaded 100 rounds with 4.0 grains upon recommendation from Dusty Boddams. The average MV was 695 fps with 4.0 grains of WST for a PF of 160, except for two of the ten rounds indicated 621 fps, and that is alarming because the PF was 143. When I checked powder weight while reloading on a 550B, every 10 rounds of so, the weight was spot-on at 4.0 grains. If the MVs are averaged during a PF check, I'd be OK but if the DQ happens if ANY round is under PF I'd be SOOL. To hedge a bit in the future, I'll use 4.1 grains and chrono on the next trip to the range. One difference I noted between WST and Trail Boss where both are running at 695 to 700 fps: the felt recoil impulse with Trail Boss is less. And that's been true with TB compared to other powders in other cartridges including 7.5x55 and 45-70.

I decided to load 4.0 grains of WST behind the 230 so I didn't make it to the range. That happens tomorrow morning and I'll Chrono both loads 4.0 and 4.4 with 230s.

JFN, you make a good point. I solicited comments from the CAS shooters because they are members of SASS or shoot at SASS events if not SASS members. Increasing their participation into another SASS event should increase the value of their membership in or association with SASS clubs and might attract more shooters to WBAS. I am not familiar with the IPSC and similar disciplines, so I'd not be qualified to talk intelligently to those shooters. Someone who plays or has played with them should undertake a survey with them. I've watched a few videos so I'd be what's called 'an internet expert'. Their stages are inside berms, a different setup compared to CAS ranges with which I am familiar. They run multiple stages simultaneously and independently of each other. Those setups allow the shooter to move downrange while shooting, and then they declare a downrange to score and tape their paper or cardboard targets. There is much more movement, different rules, different weapons, higher ammo count compared to WBAS that our game should seem almost boring to the IPSC type shooter. Our game should require a nearly complete makeover to morph into the IPSC type game, and that might add competition to an already satisfied market. That change would not offer a revolutionary different game to anyone. I don't think that we can make such significant or revolutionary changes that would drive WBAS further from CAS. 7-round magazines, M1917 revolvers would be the most evolutionary change for WBAS, additional gauges and calibers less so. Those changes would not move WBAS far from where it is now, might attract additional shooters. I haven't had coffee yet, so maybe my thoughts are muddled. Your comments?

OK, Garrison Joe. I've loaded 100 rounds of 45 acp with 4.4 grains of WST and 230 cast bullets. I will use the Lucas Synthetic Stabilizer until I get some Lucas gun lube. Actually I've been using it for a week or so and didn't know it, as Judge Hangin Knott has been cleaning 1911s and applied it. I didn't check for cleanliness before he cleaned them, but he says that compared to Mobil 1 there is less soot from the Trail Boss. Tomorrow I head for the local gun club with chrono. Good luck at EOT!

Thanks for your replies to this thread. Check out the response on the SASS Wire when I questioned cowboys and cowgirls about why they didn't shoot WBAS. That is interesting and informative, some information that WBAS can use to expand the game. Hopefully the responses will continue, and we consider them and act on them. Father Kit Cool Gun Garth added some humor and I'm still laughing about his reply! THT, you delivered a bunch of information in your post. I want to ponder that. Good luck at EOT! GJ mentions publicity, or lack of it - good thought.

I liked my idea so much about asking the cowboys and cowgirls about WBAS that I submitted a post on the SASS forum. Maybe they will help us increase the value of WBAS for them. Follow here: http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263411-cowboyscowgirls-why-dont-you-shoot-wild-bunch/

I don't have a suggestion yet, but continue to gather information and living in Texas I look at activity at area clubs in South Central Texas - Houston and a bit north; Austin area; San Antonio area. The 2017 OK State WB match attracted about 37 shooters, and 18 or so participated in the Bolt Action Military Rifle Side Match. Awesome turnout! The 2016 TX State WB match attracted 13 shooters; the 2015 scores weren't posted but I don't remember that more than 20 participated; the 2014 match attracted 24, and the 2013 match attracted 23. This is in a state with what is likely the most cowboy clubs in the US (don't know about membership numbers). What is different between the OK and TX shooters and hosting clubs that the OK WB match is so well attended and the TX State match in 2016 attracted only 13? What is the OK club doing to promote the sport that Texas is not? Is there a core group of IDPA or such competitors at that OK club that includes the CAS and WBAS shooters? When I talk to cowboys about WB, some have no interest in semiautos. Some have 1911s but haven't committed to shooting WB and seldom shoot their 1911s. Some enjoy CAS to the extent that they play nothing else. Some observed the difficulties encountered with 1911 and 1897s and want no part of that. Some don't want to bother with learning how to reload 45 acp and how to participate in WBAS matches. Many cowboys don't like those distant WB targets - can't shoot as fast as in CAS matches, have more misses and other penalties. Less gratification! Next question to ask cowboys: What would tempt you to join WBAS? Cowboy 1911 category in a CAS match shoots CLOSE targets, few participate, so that objection of target distance seems insincere if the cowboys don't pick up a 1911 with which to play and earn that bang-clang gratification. Observations: Plum Creek (Lockhart) hosted a WB match on a Sunday after a Saturday CAS match. Six shooters played. Willow Hole Cowboys (North Zulch) allows full WB game inside of a CAS match - adds two magazines and shoots those at cowboy rifle targets, so ten pistol targets are a bit close - but fun! Stokes four shotgun. Three of us played WB in the last two matches. Green Mountain Regulators (Marble Falls) allow one to shoot Cowboy 1911 during a CAS match. I've been the lone slide action shooter. Texican Rangers (Comfort) allow one to shoot Cowboy 1911 during a CAS match. Usually I'm alone or there are two of us, but Sunday there were three of us. Texican Rangers host two WB matches a year on 5th Saturday. Ten of us played in April. I don't recall ever having enough for two posses. Texas Riviera Pistoleros (George West, south of San Antonio) host four WB matches a year. Six to eight play, and this is a significant share of their membership. Compliments to them! The Tejas Caballeros (Blanco, north of San Antonio) have hosted WB matches in years past, turnout is low, and they've not tried again in 2016 or 2017 but they have relocated their range which is enough distraction. Whether they gin up in the future I can't predict. Thunder River Renegades (northwest Houston) last hosted WBAS in 2015, eleven played. I didn't find other WBAS scores. Old Fort Parker Patriots (north of Waco) haven't posted any WB scores, likely because they don't have any WB matches. Oakwood (between Dallas and Houston) hosts a WB match on the Monday after their weekend matches. Six play, as many as eight. That might be a tough match in which to play as those who are working can't play. South Texas Pistolaros (San Antonio) are ramping up their WBAS games, hosting what I think is the second one this year although a four stage match instead of five stages. As Dusty Boddams says, one must bring the parishioners into the 'church' before they can be 'baptized' and STPs are doing that. This upcoming WBAS match will conflict with a CAS match at the Tejas Cabs. These are observations and comments, no criticism is intended, apologies if anyone is offended. I don't want to throw bombs. Well, maybe enough to uncover the perceived value and look at what is happening. This is an attempt determine how to INCREASE the value of WBAS for CAS shooters. To make a plan to make progress, we must know from where we start. Maybe we should post this thread on the SASS cowboy forum? That would ask a whole bunch of cowboys? Great idea, even if I say so myself. Or has this already been done? I don't follow that forum closely. Discussion is welcomed! Flames too! Smoke away.

Will do, thanks BD!

Thanks, GJ!

Hey Boggus, I found some of that miracle powder (WST) in San Saba TX, and next week or so I'll work on some reloads. How about sharing your recipe for 230 gr bullets. I have an unopened quart of Lucas Synthetic Oil Stabilizer. Is that anywhere near Lucas Red or Blue in lube performance? Good shooting!

Great question, and I motion that we make efforts to address it by understanding what drives or doesn't drive the cowboy shooters into WBAS. WBAS is not offering enough Value. Every decision we make is guided by Value. The Benefit minus the Cost is the Value. More thoughts later after a visit to the gunsmith to remove the slide aperture screw on the 03A3 that I broke attempting to swap to a smaller aperture.

GJ Good bullets - check! Purcellas Good loading techniques - check! Wilson Case Gauge for length, Lyman M Die for case mouth Find the load - check! Found the sweet spot by powder type and weight Practice - Aha! I see where to spend time - Thanks