Shotgun Secenario Question

[Flying W Ramrod]

Shotgun scenario

Engage 4 knock down targets, any order.

As shot:

Knock down 1 and 2, hit but not knock down 3rd, eject live 4th round, reload and hit number 3, knocking it down.

Staged ended with targets 1, 2, 3, down, target 4 standing.

Call please and point the rule to me.

Thanks

 

[Flash]

STAGE CONVENTIONS

Stage Conventions, or standard range behaviors, are a list of practices every shooter is expected to know and follow on every stage. These stage conventions should be followed in all Wild BunchTM Action Shooting matches unless otherwise directed in stage descriptions.

1. Knockdown targets that do not fall may not be re-engaged. No missed target may be re-engaged.

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or pistol) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

 

 

[Abilene]

My first thought would be 2 misses and a Procedural.  If he had shot the 4th target instead of the 3rd with the reloaded round, it would have just been one miss only.

[Garrison Joe]

Miss, for target 3 not being down on it's first engagement.

 

P for re-engaging that 3rd target. 

 

He didn't use more shots than allowed, he got 3 down, but he violated the basic WB rule that shotgun knockdowns cannot be re-engaged if either missed or failed to fall.

 

On stationary targets, a hit on an incorrect target for the sequence is only a P.  It's never a P and a Miss.  Has to be the same for reactive targets.  So, re-shooting #3 target earns the P.    And #3 first shot was a failure to knock down - a Miss.

 

So, a P and a Miss.

 

 

If we make it more complicated than that to keep the score, we do ALL our shooters a real disservice.

 

Good luck, GJ

[August West]

This is a good one!

 

If I limit myself to applying the rules, as Flash has posted them, and only apply those rules to the condition of the range at the end of the string, I get one miss for a standing target.

 

So when the dust settles:  I really don't know where the shooter aimed his third or his forth shots -- wasn't there, probably wouldn't be sure even if I was.  I do know that three of the targets fell during the proper course of firing four (4) shotgun rounds.  I know one of the targets remains standing after the proper course of fire is completed by the shooter.

 

(believe me, I got snookered into two other "calls" before arriving at this one!).

[Garrison Joe]

OP said:

hit but not knock down 3rd..... (then) hit number 3, knocking it down 

 

If the spotters are SURE that he re-engaged the 3rd target which had already been engaged, then he definitely violated WB stage conventions regarding "Do not reengage a missed knockdown or a KD that failed to fall."    That would be a P.  Violations of the instructions or rules on a target set is a P - it's not just incorrect target order that is a violation.

 

But if they are not sure, or there was about the same amount of shot on target 3 and 4 from that #3 shot, then there is no violation warranting a P, just the one standing target that was missed. 

 

This is a VERY fine line to walk, but as I understand the rules as currently written, that is the way it needs to be called.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Joe Lafives 5481L]

I tend to agree with August.  We CANNOT KNOW the shooter's intention and since there is no order , a miss.  Definitely possible that he was goin outside in , outside (miss but some pellets hit inside target) and then inside.

 

 

[Tully Mars]

Based on the description that the third target was hit, but didn't go down, reengaging that target is a "P". GJ is correct in a P and a miss.

If the targets are placed so close together that pellets from a miss on one target hit another target, then the shooters got a good argument for just a miss.

 

Tully

[Garrison Joe]

You don't need to know the shooter's intent if the spotters have told you the shooter hit the 3rd target with the 3rd shot.  In fact, you NEVER know the shooter's intent.  Trying to figure that out is, simply, wrong.

 

If two spotters both say that 3rd shot was a "hit-but-not-down" and it was on target 3, and for sure the last shot was a re-engagement on that 3rd target, you score the P and a Miss.

 

It NEVER matters what the shooter was aiming at.  Or even what he SAYS he was aiming at.  What he HIT is the governing fact.

 

Why complicate a what's the call discussion when you have the spotters' declaration laid out pretty clearly by the poster?

 

Good luck, GJ

[August West]

To the end of understanding this situation, let me offer two other thoughts.

 

1.  Spotters do not call Procedural Penalties, they report what they saw to the R/O, who -- in turn -- may or may not assign a Procedural Penalty to the shooter.  The benefit of any doubt goes to the shooter.

 

2. Expending five (5) shotgun rounds would eliminate all doubt about the shooter having reengaged a target.

[Happy Jack]

The committee is discussing this and I will post the final decision.  Arguments for both calls BUT I am pretty sure how it will go.

[August West]

Why not have them discuss it here?

[Happy Jack]

The decision has been made.  (Actually all were in agreement and no discussion was needed).

 

Final call:  One miss and a "P".

 

There is some basis in the rules for all of the calls mentioned, BUT at the end of the day we need to remember two things:

Don't be a "hard ass"    and when possible  "the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter"

 

Since the targets were far enough apart (One of the Committee was at the match) there is no question of "overlapping targets" so hitting target #3 twice is a "P".  In violation of WBAS Stage Conventions. (knockdown targets may not be re-engaged)

That leaves us with the question of 2 misses or 1?? Again the Stage Conventions state: Any knockdown target still standing.......will be counted as a miss.      Only 1 target was still standing.

[Abilene]

Okay.  So, if the shooter had loaded another round and knocked down the 4th target, then he would end up with just a P and no misses, right?

[Garrison Joe]

That would be illegally acquired ammo (beyond the 4 he was allowed to use in shotgun), and all targets shot with that "extra" ammo are 5 second penalties.  As well as the extra time it takes to load and fire the round.

 

Shotgun section, range operations - Any rounds loaded beyond the required number that are fired are treated as “illegally acquired ammunition.”

 

and

5-second Penalty - Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

 

So, if shooter followed Abilene's procedure, it would still be scored like a P and a Miss regardless of whether the 5th shot knocked down #4 target.  Plus the extra time on the clock.  Extra shots beyond that, keep adding a 5-second penalty per shot.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Happy Jack and the rest of the committee,

I don't disagree with the call of one miss and a P. My question is this, Does the rule that knockdown targets and missed targets may not be re-engaged serve any other purpose than to create a P? We shoot a set number of rounds per string and in a set pattern. Any re-engaged target will translate in to a miss at end of the string when the shooter runs out of ammo.

Just askin',

JFN