Questions for Baltimoreed11754

[Boggus Deal]

Not wanting to hijack Last Chance's post anymore than necessary, I wanted to hear more about your comments.

I want to say I appreciate your enthusiasm for WBAS.

Are you seeing clubs not following WBAS rules pertaining to equipment and costuming?

Have you seen the costuming rules change dramatically over the last several years?

Other than freeing up the firearms covenants some to allow better participation, how has the rules changed?

Please don't take any of these comments as assaults, I just want to point out a few things and have an adult conversation. You mention allowing "modern"1911s "gamed" it too much. Well, it is a game. It is a competition, and like I told a friend a few weeks ago when she asked when did CAS get so competitive? My response was when they started using a timer.

This is Wild Bunch Action Shooting. Its not a movie reenactment. It can't be. There would maybe be 8 stages to be shot over and over and over again. Kind of sounds like Steel Challenge and boring after a while.

Allowing more modern 1911s allows a lot more shooters in who otherwise couldn't compete. Same with the Henry Big Boy lever action. And the Model 12 shotgun. Good running 97s are getting scarce and more expensive by the day. Allowing the Model 12 allowed more shooters.

Did any of the rule changes, in any way, preclude you from shooting or costuming by restricting the way you had done it in the past?

I look forward to hearing your answers.

[Boggus Deal]

Also, I’m searching for the Western Action Shootists Association you mentioned. Can you post a link for me? Thanks.

[Baltimoreed11754]

Boggus, didn’t mean to get carried away and certainly hope no feelings were hurt. Opinions and a.....s, everybody’s got one. I’ve certainly paid my dues in sass, been to a bunch and created a bunch of matches for local clubs that I’ve been involved with over the years. IMO, WB was an evolutionary offshoot of sass which we all know is a fantasy gun game with costumes, big hats, antique weapons [sA’s] with old long guns, WB should have continued that fantasy only using slightly less antique weapons [1911/ A1s] and overlapping long guns. Cowboy 3-gun should have become the offshoot of WB which would have allowed the ‘modern’ 1911s and speed gear with a minimum of costuming if at all. C3G could use the same range, steel, props etc of sass and WB but with the emphasis on the speed that the shooters want. You mention cost, 1911/A1 clones are maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of what a Kimber, SA, etc ‘modern’ pistol cost and for what we use them for probably work better. I have always shot duelist but don’t have issues with the use of both hands as many of us are not the men or women we once were and need both hands to safely work the 1911 pistol. M12s in military or civilian dress are cool. Speeking of dress, the one WB group that I’ve shot with were very casual but in reality if you’re shooting a ‘modern’ 1911 why would you give a darn about being dressed in anything except modern clothes. Duh.

  The Western Action Shootist Association is unfortunately a defunct shooting org created in 1998 to counter the private ownership of SASS by The Wild Bunch. [in hindsight The Wild Bunch have created a truly viable sport and with the creation of Founders Ranch hopefully cas will never end.] I’ve shot at a couple of actual WASA matches and loved the variety of firearms used. The creators of WASA felt that no one should ‘own’ cas for one thing, they also felt that double action revolvers and self loaders existed before 1900 and should also be allowed. They wrote the handgun rules to allow two SAs or fixed sighted military style DAs loaded with 5 rds each or a combination of one DA and a self loader loaded with 5 rds each. They also allow the stoking of the pump sg on the line with as many rds as needed. Not any faster but a lot more fun. The safety and costuming rules were basically the same. My club uses both sass and wasa rules, shooters choice. I usually carry a New Service or N frame Smith in my crossdraw and a 1911 in my strong side holster ala Lee Marvin in The Professionals. We also do WB matches several times a year along with BAM matches which I suggested in 2017 before I’d ever heard of BAMM. We are not affiliated with sass and are able to do whatever we want. I have a WASA rule book from 2002 if you have any questions, no links I’m afraid.

[Boggus Deal]

No hurt feelings on this end, my friend. I want this sport to grow and value your thoughts. We may or may not always agree but here, we can have adult conversations about it.

 

[Boggus Deal]

i Would happily pay for a copy of that rule book.

[Boggus Deal]

I guess my next question would be what part of WBAS would you like to see like a sport that failed? My point being there are reasons it went under and WBAS is still here and growing, albeit not as fast as I'd like. I firmly believe it has a lot more to do with the economy and life style of the populace than the rules.

[Baltimoreed11754]

I don’t have a way to copy it but I’ll go by staples and see what they would charge to make a copy, it’s only 22 pages which would be 11 copied pages. CAS is a gun sport that is very competitor age based not like ipsc [young male], idpa [everybody regardless of age or sex], bullseye [young], icore [variety of shooters]. CAS shooters are mostly old folks who liked playing cowboy and never grew up. When we all pass the sport will definitely decline if not end for lack of match attendance. WB/C3G however is pulling in cas and ipsc shooters who want to do something different with their cas firearm investment. I shot ipsc years ago with my stock 1911s and was only a C/D class shooter. I was shooting against race guns and equipment and wasn’t competitive so I moved to cas. After I left ipsc it created a stock 1911 class which would have leveled the field a bit. My impression is that WB and C3G are in decline. Try to find a match. As I said on the other thread the ‘modern’ 1911 shooter who is all about speed is completely opposite to the old fart shooting his stock 1911/A1 who is just having fun. It’s not just 1 vs 2 hands or fixed vs adjustable sights. There’s a completely different mindset, the difference between the mousefart shooting gamers in sass and the guys with .45s loaded with black. The difference there is that the love of the old west’s guns, gear, outfits and fun atmosphere outweighs the gamer’s gaming. Honestly I’m not seeing that spark of fun in WB that I see in cas. Feels like an ipsc match to me. The economy definitely affects attendance and traveling for big matches but shouldn’t affect local ones. Would love to see a reorganization of WB/C3G with a definite devision between the two. Plain vanilla 1911s for one and whatever you want 1911s for the other. The big issue there is that C3G is much more advanced than WB. WB is a safer sport for old farts with 1911s. I once submitted a proposal to sass for a Military Category which would have allowed DAs and 1911s with the shooter in an appropriate uniform, too radical of an idea so it went nowhere. 

[Last Chance]

Im still missing the part where you have participated in a REAL Wildbunch match. I think before you try to have anything changed or talk high/low about any part of the sport you should attend and compete in a WB match. You'd realize the costumes are very prevalent and around. the 1 handed shooters are just as fast as the 2 handed in some cases. the "speed gear" isnt really speedy and leather mag pouches are very realistic. Some "few" people ive seen shoot black powder in WB. If you count kimber as a quality comp gun i would advise you to 5 other brands first. And your cheap end 1911 a1 runs in the mid 500$ range. a decent modern gun starts in the 700-800$ range. hardly a big $ difference.. My Wildbunch gun for 10 years now is a STI Spartan made in the Philippines under Armscor that retailed at the time around 775$ And the only super modern crazy wild speed parts added to most peoples guns (including mine) are adjustable sights, beaver tail (no speed advantage) and trigger job. Some guns come with triggers that are great stock.. small magwells aren't even allowed. I can consistently shoot my model 12 faster than my 97 with 6 stoked....but its an average of maybe .2 seconds. and my model 12 works mostly, all the time. lol. So I don't think any part of the sport has been ridiculous so far or changed for the worse, all for the better. Real WB matches are far from speedy, not very common that targets are close and fast and targets should never be closer than 7 yards. This last year at worlds I set several 30+ yard targets. You should make your way sometime!   

[Boggus Deal]

Baltimore,

I'll glaly pay for a copy of that and for postage. Also, you may want to get in touch with Shell Stuffer and Back 40. They are our

"Bois form Illinois". They are the WB Ambassadors for that region, fine shooters and good guys. Just don't tell them I said that last part.