BP in 1911

[Kid Rich]

Loaded some BP rounds for my 1911. Didn't change springs. It ran 20+ rounds before the chamber got fouled enough to not chamber the rounds properly. Ejected just fine. I didn't have the powder I wanted or proper BP bullets still had no lead in barrel. This 1911 has a tight chamber and is very particular about the ammo used in it. I think it will work fine. kR

[Grouchy Spike]

KR, if your 1911 fouls after 20 rounds of BP, it sounds like you'll be cleaning the chamber between mag changes in a WB match!  I'd recommend use of a powder that doesn't inhibit the operation of the 1911 during a match, or at least during a stage.  4.3 gr Trail Boss with a 230 gr RN works well, and there are numerous other powders that will work equally as well if not better.  I like the easy recoil of TB.  And an overcharge is immediately obvious in the loading process!

[Kid Rich]

I think you missed the point. If you reread my post you will see that  I stated that I didn't have the proper powder as in the proper BP. I used Schutzen just to see if it would cycle with standard springs. I also stated that I didn't have the proper bullets as in no lube. They should be softer and be lubed with a BP compatible lube. When I get some Olde Eynsford I will load some more as the fouling with that powder will stay moist and not foul the chamber. I will also cast softer bullets and use a BP compatible lube. My point was that the 1911 will cycle just fine with BP with no modifications to the springs. As far as using TB my wife was using 4.7 and was NOT meeting the power factor so she went to Clays. If you are using 4.3 and 230's I think you should run your loads over a Chronograph to see if you are even close to 150 pf. kR

[Garrison Joe]

Well, you have repeated results that have been reported here several times over the last 6 years.  BTW, you will NEVER see lead in the barrel with BP rounds (unless things are going horribly wrong), because the temperature of the barrel reaches a point where leading burns out.  In well-run BP guns, only the chemical residue (potassium sulfates and carbonates and hydroxides) remain behind.

 

Yes, it CAN be done.  Yes, at some number of rounds through the gun, the 1911 will foul out to the point where it quits feeding.  Yes, it would be really dumb to compete with these BP loads. 

 

But it can be done.  Are congratulations expected?  I'm not so sure they will be extended - no one asked me to hold their beer while they tried it.  ;D

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Kid Rich]

I shoot what I like because I enjoy it not for accolades from someone else. I shoot Frontier Cartridge in SASS because quite frankly I find smokeless SASS shooting to be boring. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it if you enjoy it. Whatever floats your boat. I'm not a gamer in SASS or in WB. Pardon me if I haven't taken the time to go back thru six years of posts to see if I was being redundant. I was of the opinion that a person could express their opinions or results of what they found to be interesting if they felt like it. As far as whether it is "dumb" to compete with BP rounds in a 1911 that is an opinion. Not one that I agree with but I won't call it "dumb".  No matter what powder is used in a 1911 at some point it will foul out to the point it will stop feeding. No I wasn't looking for congratulations. My comment about no lead in the barrel was made because I used no lube and hard cast bullets which most probably did not obturate and should have allowed enough blow by to lead the barrel. kR

[Happy Jack]

Kr, Welcome to the forum and enjoy shooting the 1911 any way you wish. Some have tried to actually shoot matches with BP substitutes. They have had fun but it wasn't successful. The high round count obviously causes problems soon in the match. I feel most of the responses to your post were meant more as a warning that you would have problems than a personal attack. We don't allow that over here. The WBAS wire is NOT like the SASS wire. Mostly it is used to discuss ammo, firearm issues, etc. So the tone you got is in keeping with that history.

[Kid Rich]

I agree its not the SASS wire, GJ made an assumption that I would try to compete with BP in a 1911 then made the statement that it was dumb. Well, that was not the intent of my post. I may try it if I can get the right powder and lube combo going and can meet the power factor. My intent of the experiment was to see if a stock 1911 can run with BP. I have been told that you have to use reduced power springs. This does not appear to be the case. My brass was landing 5'-6' away from me. Certainly well within the distance that it should. I also do not use substitutes for my BP loads as I do not like what some of them will do to metal. Anyway I know GJ and You and did not take it as a personal attack. I have run BP loads in my rifle in WB. Regards kR

[Grouchy Spike]

"I think you missed the point."  "As far as using TB my wife was using 4.7 and was NOT meeting the power factor so she went to Clays. If you are using 4.3 and 230's I think you should run your loads over a Chronograph to see if you are even close to 150 pf." kR

 

Apologies for missing the point! I watched one shooter try BP in his 1911 and he was fouling severely, but the 1911 was working well until it fouled.

 

I did run those loads over my chrono and over a chrono at a state WB match, PF was 160.  But considering your experience, I'll chrono again.  At 4.5 gr TB the case was about capacity beneath the 230 gr.  Did you compress the powder or were you using a lighter (shorter) bullet?

[Kid Rich]

I don't remember how full the case was. I also don't know if the TB is temperature sensitive. Shirttail did the loading but was not satisfied with the load, she went to Clays and really likes the load. I know at one point she used 200 g bullets but wasn't satisfied with those either. She does use TB in her 32 Mags about 3/4 full as she can see the powder.

[Grouchy Spike]

Kid, I ran five rounds of 45 acp through a chrono today, loaded with 4.3 gr Trail Boss and a 230 gr bullet:  712; 702; 682; 698; 693 fps for PF of 163; 161; 156; 160; 159.  With 4.5 gr Trail Boss the case will be just at capacity under the 230 gr bullet.

[Kid Rich]

Sounds good. As I said I don't know if TB is temp sensitive or not but we did our testing at about the time of WR in AZ. She has been shooting the TB loads in monthly matches to use it up. She really likes the Clays and wants to start using it for her Marlins. I did use some of my BP loads in a WB match, probably the most fun I've had shooting WB since I started. The look on the MD's face was priceless. He was running the timer and is also a BP shooter in SASS. I will run her TB loads through the Chronograph again on a warm day and see what we come up with. Thanks for letting me know what you came up with. kR

[Boggus Deal]

In my experience, Trail Boss can be temperature sensitive. Running as light a load as possible in 38s, They run great in summer and a little erratic in colder weather. I upped my charge to compensate. Have not run TB in 45 Auto so can't comment there. I would suspect that a load heavy enough to reliably run the gun would not be that temp sensitive.

[Grouchy Spike]

Boggus I'm using 4.3 gr TB and a 125 gr bullet in 38 Spl.  I am more temperature sensitive than the powder, but between 50F and 100F I've not noticed a difference.  Below 50F I'm so cold IF I shoot that I don't notice the change in recoil.  What's your load for warmer climates?

 

I discovered my 1911 problem that occurred at the LA State WB Match last year and affected the recoil and operation of the slide.  Someone, not mentioning any names  :-[, emptied some 4064 or 2400 powder (don't remember which) from the Redding powder dispenser into the Trail Boss can after loading BAM ammo.  That can of TB was then used in the powder dispenser on the 550B.  Wasn't much contamination and it varied, but it was enough to dilute the TB to unhealthy low levels of pressure.  I'm double checking my powder now!  See you at TX State WB 2017?

[Kid Rich]

I loaded 100 rounds of acp 230g bullets and OE BP. Went to the range yesterday and shot 70 rounds thru my 1911. No failures of any kind, I let it set until the barrel cooled a little and took it apart. The fouling in the chamber and barrel was soft and wiped off easily. I didn't do the last 30 rounds because it was obvious the fouling was staying soft and would not create a problem. This is in AZ with very low humidity. Clean up was soap and water and done in 5 minutes. kR

[Rooster Ron Wayne 86029]

Try a Duplex Loading. 

Just dont exceed 5% 

[El Chapo]

10 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne 86029 said:

Try a Duplex Loading. 

Just dont exceed 5% 

Is there anything banning that in Wild Bunch?

[Garrison Joe]

The cowboy rules which disallow duplex loads!  If WB rules don't say something is permitted, but Cowboy rules say that same "general shooting" practice is not allowed, then the Cowboy rule almost always applies to  WB.   Good reloading sense also - a large bunch of BP shooting sports no longer allow duplex loads..

Besides, there is no practical reason to combine a smokeless and black powder in a pistol cartridge.  It's not difficult to get BP to burn in a small case.     GJ

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe said:

The cowboy rules which disallow duplex loads!  If WB rules don't say something is permitted, but Cowboy rules say that same "general shooting" practice is not allowed, then the Cowboy rule almost always applies to  WB.   Good reloading sense also - a large bunch of BP shooting sports no longer allow duplex loads..

Besides, there is no practical reason to combine a smokeless and black powder in a pistol cartridge.  It's not difficult to get BP to burn in a small case.     GJ

Do you have any authority for that proposition?  It seems like a quite dramatic oversight, but CAS rules do not apply to WBAS and they are co-equals; WB is not inferior or subject to the rules from the other game.

[Garrison Joe]

3 hours ago, El Chapo said:

seems like a quite dramatic oversight

This "extension" of Cowboy rules to WB has prevented expanding the WB rulebook to be the same page count as the Cowboy book.  It was not an oversight - it was intentional.   Perhaps this intent has slacked off a bit, as the WB handbook is almost as "bloated" as the Cowboy now.  GJ

Edited yesterday at 01:09 AM by Garrison Joe

[El Chapo]

15 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

This "extension" of Cowboy rules to WB has prevented expanding the WB rulebook to be the same page count as the Cowboy book.  It was not an oversight - it was intentional.   Perhaps this intent has slacked off a bit, as the WB handbook is almost as "bloated" as the Cowboy now.  GJ

You haven't answered my inquiry at all.  You made a claim: that a cowboy rule that has no bearing on a rule decision as to WBAS governs.  What's your authority for that?  Because you say so?  Because if there's any textual support for that, I can't find it anywhere.  You made the claim, so the burden is on you to establish why you think that claim is defensible.  My review of the WBAS rules suggests that by oversight or otherwise, the text that appears in the CAS handbook related to that issue and the banning of a certain powder by name is not present in the WBAS rules.

WBAS was once a side match, and so all that history no longer matters.  It is now its own sport with its own rules and equal recognition, so what was going on when it was a side match within CAS is irrelevant now or it wouldn't have its own rule book.

[Garrison Joe]

Since you claim I have no grounds to express my experience on this, I shall not bother you with much further discussion about this topic.  Take what I offered for a reason and a history, or not.  If you have a strong desire to precisely explore the rules applying to WB about a non-conventional powder use in main matches at this transitional point in WB operations, then you need to contact the Rules Committee.  Making inquiries of the general WB community may never satisfy your curiosity.  GJ

[Rooster Ron Wayne 86029]

Now now boys .

Let's keep it civil around here.

No duplex loads here !

But I do make them for my own range and shooting .

It's the only way to keep the Uberti S&W No.3 guns running with BP loads because of them extending the length of the frames. 

 

[El Chapo]

5 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

Since you claim I have no grounds to express my experience on this, I shall not bother you with much further discussion about this topic.  Take what I offered for a reason and a history, or not.  If you have a strong desire to precisely explore the rules applying to WB about a non-conventional powder use in main matches at this transitional point in WB operations, then you need to contact the Rules Committee.  Making inquiries of the general WB community may never satisfy your curiosity.  GJ

If my reading of the text is correct, I don't have to consult anything.  It'd be the person claiming I was doing something against a non-existent rule who would bear the burden of explaining what was violated.  Since I have enough ammunition for quite a while, I came here to see what others were doing because black powder is fun.

I never said you had no grounds to express whatever you want.  I asked what your textual support was.  What's the call?  And on what do you base the call? 

Edited 1 hour ago by El Chapo