Whitey James Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 Maybe it's that I just started a couple of months ago or that I'm only 53 and not full on curmudgeon yet, but why all the hate from some over Wild Bunch? I say if it helps bring new members ten it can't be bad. I knew as soon as I saw that Wild Bunch was a thing , I wanted to join. I like Cowboy shooting also Oak Ridge shot its first WB match this month and everyone who shot had a great time! It's not a Ford vs. Chevy thing, you can like both (at least I do) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 Well…. Since you asked. 99% of cowboy action dress up players can’t really shoot, they don’t like a higher round count, targets out past 3 feet or targets smaller than a barn door. Or the fact that that Wild Bunch stages aren’t choreographed like a kindergarten play. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey James Posted October 17 Author Share Posted October 17 Heh...That's the first honest opinion I have heard so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 2 minutes ago, Deplorable Dan said: Heh...That's the first honest opinion I have heard so far. Shhhhh! Don’t tell anyone! They’ll try harder to dumb down what’s left of Wild Bunch to cowboy action level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Moonshine Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 10 hours ago, Deplorable Dan said: Maybe it's that I just started a couple of months ago or that I'm only 53 and not full on curmudgeon yet, but why all the hate from some over Wild Bunch? I say if it helps bring new members ten it can't be bad. I knew as soon as I saw that Wild Bunch was a thing , I wanted to join. I like Cowboy shooting also Oak Ridge shot its first WB match this month and everyone who shot had a great time! It's not a Ford vs. Chevy thing, you can like both (at least I do) Hi Dan, Welcome to the group. I've been in SASS for 20+ years and I can assure you of two things. 1. Most of the folks in SASS (CAS and WB) are absolutely awesome and amazing people. They can and will become some of your favorite & best friends and you will look forward to seeing them at matches as much or more then shooting the match itself. Friendships with these kind of folks is rare outside of SASS, but it's the like minded "cowboy way" that makes these people so special and are 99% of SASS as a whole. It's the "do anything" to help attitude, the joy of seeing other friends shoot well in the matches, the laughter, the inside jokes, the sharing of experiences, the evenings around the campfires, being true supporters of each other and SASS, and always offering an encouraging word. 2. A few folks in SASS (CAS and WB) won't fit into #1. As for WB and the changes of late. Adding all SASS legal Shotguns and .38 rifle have shown great promise for the future. It's still to early to tell with pure confidence but the conversations we are having and the wave of contact that SASS is receiving about WB is a great sign. The TG meeting at the Nationals last week was excellent and productive, with several conversations carrying over that evening and the following days. I personally had no less then 20 conversations that were very productive, calm, and constructive regarding WB. The new WB-ROC is on task and the new TG program is in full swing with over 50 TG's world wide now and several clubs preparing to launch WB in the spring of 2025. There are many excellent topics being discussed by the TGs' for rules related to 2025 voting and the sport will move in the direction that the people (clubs, through their TG's) will vote for. Misty Moonshine has always been of the goal to "let the voice of the members guide the future". This is exactly how the future will go, the members will guide the direction. While we would love for 100% of the SASS members to be happy with 100% of SASS and rules and WB and CAS. Reality is that some aren't going to be happy with some changes or lack of changes. All we can do, is offer it out to the TG's and let them be the voice of the members at large. The loudest and most negative in opinion will not get anywhere, simply because they are unwilling to accept change and that the majority will decide through their TG's now. So in closing, I have found the greatest experience in SASS is to surround yourself with the folks that are in the first description I offered (1.) and enjoy. Thanks and have an outstanding balance to your week, CC Moonshine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 "Come for the shooting,stay for the people" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holloman Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 Would love to have some idea of what kind of changes were discussed. Unfortunately w did not have a TG at the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey James Posted October 18 Author Share Posted October 18 13 hours ago, CC Moonshine said: Hi Dan, Welcome to the group. I've been in SASS for 20+ years and I can assure you of two things. 1. Most of the folks in SASS (CAS and WB) are absolutely awesome and amazing people. They can and will become some of your favorite & best friends and you will look forward to seeing them at matches as much or more then shooting the match itself. Friendships with these kind of folks is rare outside of SASS, but it's the like minded "cowboy way" that makes these people so special and are 99% of SASS as a whole. It's the "do anything" to help attitude, the joy of seeing other friends shoot well in the matches, the laughter, the inside jokes, the sharing of experiences, the evenings around the campfires, being true supporters of each other and SASS, and always offering an encouraging word. 2. A few folks in SASS (CAS and WB) won't fit into #1. As for WB and the changes of late. Adding all SASS legal Shotguns and .38 rifle have shown great promise for the future. It's still to early to tell with pure confidence but the conversations we are having and the wave of contact that SASS is receiving about WB is a great sign. The TG meeting at the Nationals last week was excellent and productive, with several conversations carrying over that evening and the following days. I personally had no less then 20 conversations that were very productive, calm, and constructive regarding WB. The new WB-ROC is on task and the new TG program is in full swing with over 50 TG's world wide now and several clubs preparing to launch WB in the spring of 2025. There are many excellent topics being discussed by the TGs' for rules related to 2025 voting and the sport will move in the direction that the people (clubs, through their TG's) will vote for. Misty Moonshine has always been of the goal to "let the voice of the members guide the future". This is exactly how the future will go, the members will guide the direction. While we would love for 100% of the SASS members to be happy with 100% of SASS and rules and WB and CAS. Reality is that some aren't going to be happy with some changes or lack of changes. All we can do, is offer it out to the TG's and let them be the voice of the members at large. The loudest and most negative in opinion will not get anywhere, simply because they are unwilling to accept change and that the majority will decide through their TG's now. So in closing, I have found the greatest experience in SASS is to surround yourself with the folks that are in the first description I offered (1.) and enjoy. Thanks and have an outstanding balance to your week, CC Moonshine Thank you for all of the info. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Moonshine Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 14 hours ago, Doc Holloman said: Would love to have some idea of what kind of changes were discussed. Unfortunately w did not have a TG at the match. Contact your TG, they can provide information from the minutes provided for the TG's from SASS. It is posted in the WB-TG forum for TG's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totes Magoats Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 On 10/16/2024 at 9:40 PM, Boggus Deal said: 99% of cowboy action dress up players can’t really shoot Really? Any data to back that up? Maybe, just maybe it's that type of thinking that's drove people away from Wild Bunch. If Wild Bunch matches were written for those 99%, it would probably have the following/participation as Cowboy matches do today. Totes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey James Posted October 20 Author Share Posted October 20 I like both Cowboy and WB. I feel like the biggest barrier for WB is/was the lack of shotgun choices since there are no modern reproductions of model 12's and 97's. My understanding that this was changed recently to allow any SASS approved shotgun. Even with this, on a stage where you stoke 5-6 shells a double would be a huge disadvantage. I have found WB more challenging than Cowboy. Not saying that Cowboy shooters can't shoot,it's just designed for speed with very large/close targets. WB has you shooting much smaller/further targets with your handgun and you have to do mag changes and clear any malfunctions. To me, this is fun and challenging. I have known about SASS for many years and had watched videos on YouTube of people fanning mouse fart loaded revolvers with weak hand thumbs with zero recoil and it didn't appeal to me. I thought initially that they were shooting .22's. After actually doing it I have a new found appreciation for it because it is very rewarding to hear the steel ring! Having said all of this, I truly feel like the stages in Cowboy could be a bit tougher though. either smaller targets at longer distances or raise the power factor to that of factory ammo. Shooting a clean stage or match should be an accomplishment like bowling a perfect game , finishing a round of golf under par, pitching a complete game shutout and not so easy. Thankfully, we have a choice and I will continue to shoot both styles but prefer WB for the reasons I listed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 5 hours ago, Totes Magoats said: Really? Any data to back that up? Maybe, just maybe it's that type of thinking that's drove people away from Wild Bunch. If Wild Bunch matches were written for those 99%, it would probably have the following/participation as Cowboy matches do today. Totes Why do you think they had to take the rule out of the rule book about a match DQ if the bullet struck within 5 yards of the shooter? When you can’t hit a barn door sized target more than 5 yards away… And l beg to differ on that’s the reason for lack of attendance. After the recent rule changes, attendance should have skyrocketed, right? Well, it didn’t. EOT was down. Land Run was down. It didn’t draw shooters. It just ran off more dedicated shooters. The numbers don’t lie. All one needs to do is look at the match results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey James Posted October 21 Author Share Posted October 21 3 minutes ago, Boggus Deal said: Why do you think they had to take the rule out of the rule book about a match DQ if the bullet struck within 5 yards of the shooter? When you can’t hit a barn door sized target more than 5 yards away… And l beg to differ on that’s the reason for lack of attendance. After the recent rule changes, attendance should have skyrocketed, right? Well, it didn’t. EOT was down. Land Run was down. It didn’t draw shooters. It just ran off more dedicated shooters. The numbers don’t lie. All one needs to do is look at the match results. I don't doubt that the vast majority shoot Cowboy. Last match there were 29 cowboy and 10 Wild Bunch shooters. I'm not great at math, but that is about 20% I don't see a future where more people will shoot WB over cowboy, but, I do think it will become more popular with the shotgun rules. For example, Oak Ridge club shot it's very first WB match this month and it drew 7 shooters on a Thursday. They are now planning on shooting a match every month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totes Magoats Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 11 hours ago, Boggus Deal said: attendance should have skyrocketed It's going to take a little time. Many hate the precision pistol matches that WB turned into. Once they see the setup of the way WB will be ran at clubs, more will participate. I talked to many at Land Run this year that have never shot WB at LR before. They are already planning to shoot it next year. Time will tell. What I don't understand is how allowing .38 rifles and non-pump shotguns hurt the game. It has no impact on how purist WB shooters shoot the match, they can still use the .40+ rifles and model 12's. If they are worried about SxS shooters and .38 rifle shooters beating them, they have bigger issues they need to work on. Totes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 1 hour ago, Totes Magoats said: It's going to take a little time. Many hate the precision pistol matches that WB turned into. Once they see the setup of the way WB will be ran at clubs, more will participate. I talked to many at Land Run this year that have never shot WB at LR before. They are already planning to shoot it next year. Time will tell. What I don't understand is how allowing .38 rifles and non-pump shotguns hurt the game. It has no impact on how purist WB shooters shoot the match, they can still use the .40+ rifles and model 12's. If they are worried about SxS shooters and .38 rifle shooters beating them, they have bigger issues they need to work on. Totes You just backed up my argument. While I have never been to a Wild Bunch match that was a “precision pistol match”, they should be more challenging. Not bump the barn door sized target with your muzzle and pull the trigger. Changing the guns is not the problem. Making it cowboy with a 1911 is. If I were to go to the cowboy wire and throw a tantrum because I can’t shoot my .38s in Classic Cowboy what would happen? Everyone would go into vapors! Over a costume category… Just a costume category… Wild Bunch was a stand alone shooting sport. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totes Magoats Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 On 10/21/2024 at 10:27 AM, Boggus Deal said: Wild Bunch was a stand alone shooting sport. ... on life support. I hope the changes save it. Totes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 1 hour ago, Totes Magoats said: ... on life support. I hope the changes save it. Totes It’s odd that every year until this year after the changes, Winter Range and EOT sold out. Had a cap and a waiting list. While cowboy attendance steadily declined. All you have to do is look at the final match results. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC Moonshine Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 On 10/23/2024 at 10:52 AM, Boggus Deal said: It’s odd that every year until this year after the changes, Winter Range and EOT sold out. Had a cap and a waiting list. While cowboy attendance steadily declined. All you have to do is look at the final match results. Hi, For the record so everyone is aware of the numbers. WB historically had/ has less then .07% the number of shooters then CAS. It may be as low as (.04%). It is the belief that the changes will entice CAS shooters to easily jump over and try WB. It is working and has created an uptick that is notable and will be measurable next year for sure. Anyone can paint a good or bad picture in what was changed, but I know that SASS, The SASS Board, and many long standing SASS members have received great replies from hundreds of people on the new direction. It's now in the hands of the WB-TG's and WB-ROC to guide the future and that was exactly what Misty Moonshine wanted. Those that left, left on their own and in my opinion abandoned ship prematurely and had no interest in helping shape the future. Again, without changes, WB was not an option to continue, the participation rate was to low for the resources needed to keep it going. So it needed change or moved to a side match only event. Now, the TG's (the voice of the masses) can guide the WB program and make it the game the people want. If you want to be part of the solution then become a TG or at least talk at length with a WB-TG. BTW, EOT numbers in 2024 were down because several boycotted the event over the rule changes and we knew that would be the case. Land Run had low numbers because of two hurricanes in the southern states that caused a big number of cancellations the final 10 days. Cowboy numbers are still growing every month and SASS as a whole is doing well. We are very optimistic that WB will continue to grow over the next few years and settle into a sport that still resembles the original intent but has a flavor that current shooters want. We all want it to thrive. Thanks for reading and have a super weekend, CC Moonshine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totes Magoats Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 Thanks CC for the details. I am excited about the future of WB. I enjoy shooting it and hope it's got a long life ahead. Totes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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