Movement with Shotgun question?

[Doc Holloman]

When a stage has split shotgun targets, when can you move with the shotgun stoked?   As an example, the stage has 6 shotgun targets, two at the right side shooting position, and 4 at the left side position.  Rifle and pistol targets are at  the middle shooting position.  Order of targets is shooters choice.  Shooter loads the shotgun with six rounds.  At the buzzer, he engages the  two right hand   targets  from the right hand position, and then safely moves to the left hand position to engage the 4 remaining targets, before stowing the shotgun and moving on to the pistol and rifle targets.

Sounds pretty basic to me and that is how I have seen this situation  run many times.   So what's the issue.?  Well, a club member who is a long time WB shooter and RO pointed out the language in the WB Shooting Handbook that reads: " •Shotgun magazines may be loaded with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence. Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position."      

 Issue revolves around the phrase "initial target sequence".  How does that language apply to split shotgun targets?  Should the shooter have only loaded two at the loading table and then loaded the remaining four on the clock?  Or do all six shotgun targets constitute the "initial target sequence", in which case loading six was legal.   And would it have made a difference if the shooter had engaged the pistol and rifle targets in between the two groups of shotgun targets (safely staging the shotgun in accordance with the rules "Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)."

 

If the first interpretation is correct (reload four on the clock) than I am not sure I would see the applicability of the shotgun movement rule:

"• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

– Action open, round on carrier.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.

Maybe I am reading too much into this , but I know we have a split shotgun stage coming up at a match this weekend, and would love an "expert" interpretation. 

Doc sends. 

 

[Garrison Joe]

The use of two phrases that to me seem to mean just about the same in these rules (and in common use in stage descriptions) appears to be the cause of confusion.

They are: "target sequence" and "shooting string"

Only the term "shooting string" is defined in the Definitions section of the rule book:

Quote

Shooting String – shots from one type of firearm prior to use of the next type of firearm engaged.

What I have seen in common usage in WB is for "target sequence" to mean the same thing, perhaps becoming more specific ONLY if there is a target order required for the string - like "using a left to right sweep."

 

The key to these definitions of the shooting string or target sequence is WHEN the firearm type in use changes in the stage.  If the shooter continues using the shotgun (not changing to another type), but has safe movement from one position to another, that is all one shooting string, and also one target sequence (where no order beyond the right set of targets are shot before moving and shooting the left set of targets).  Thus, shooting 2 SG targets from right and then moving to the left position to shoot 4 targets would be only one shooting string or one target sequence.

Your scenario can shot with a single SG shooting string.  If done so, never restaging the shotgun for future use, then the shotgun can be brought to the line loaded with all six rounds and shot as a single string with movement.   

Your scenario can also be shot by a shooter (who perhaps is not paying attention) as two shooting strings, by restaging the shotgun after moving to the left position, and firing another type of gun (rifle or pistol) before shooting the left SG targets.  There would now be two SG strings, and the right one would be the "initial target sequence" and the left one would be the "second target sequence"   Per the rule about "initial target sequence", the shotgun should only have been loaded and brought to the line with 2 rounds.  4 rounds would have to be loaded when beginning the "second target sequence" for the shotgun.

So, it does make a difference about how the stage is written, or how the shooter decides to shoot a stage that is loosely written.

The shooter is still responsible for maintaining safe conditions for movement with shotgun and for safe restaging of a shotgun for further use:

Quote

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.
  – NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.
  – Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)
• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only
  – Action open, round on carrier.
  – Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.

Using the term "split shotgun targets" in the scenario does not clearly define HOW the shooter will have to shoot, IMHO.   Targets do not have to be split into two physical locations to cause a "split target sequence".   Split means that there is more than one sequence for a given gun.  Changing gun type is what causes a split.  Not changing shooting position.   Left and right placed targets, if shot by shotgun continuously (not changing gun types), still is all one shooting sequence (is not a split sequence).

In my opinion, a stage description should NOT use "split SG targets" - it has uncertain meaning.  Did the stage as written use "split" anywhere in it? If it did, please quote what the stage description said.

BTW - A favorite "trick" (P prone) stage in WB is to write a scenario that shooter shoot SG from three positions, with say, pistol before SG at 1, rifle before SG at 2, and more pistol before SG at 3.  That makes three SG sequences.  Shooter has to load 2 at the loading table, then 2 more at the second position, and 2 more at the third position.   Doing otherwise overloads the shotgun, and the overloaded rounds are "illegally acquired ammunition."

Now, do we need another definition added for "target sequence"?   Or do we all agree that the two terms are just about the same?  That is a good question.

good luck, GJ

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

You load the required number of rounds, up to 6, at the loading table. Once you shoot those 6, the remaining rounds (subsequent targets) must come from the body or a staged location.

This does not mean to say you can only load, and shoot, the number of rounds needed for that location, i.e. multiple shooting positions for shotgun. It means load up to 6 and load from the body or staged location, as needed, after the first 6 targets have been engaged.

You are safe for movement: WBSHB Pg 15 "Safe for movement shotgun in hand only
– Action open, round on carrier.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed."

You are safe for the shotgun to leave your hands, restaged for further use: WBSHB Pg 15 "Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"

 

[Doc Holloman]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

 

Using the term "split shotgun targets" in the scenario does not clearly define HOW the shooter will have to shoot, IMHO.   Targets do not have to be split into two physical locations to cause a "split target sequence".   Split means that there is more than one sequence for a given gun.  Changing gun type is what causes a split.  Not changing shooting position.   Left and right placed targets, if shot by shotgun continuously (not changing gun types), still is all one shooting sequence (is not a split sequence).

In my opinion, a stage description should NOT use "split SG targets" - it has uncertain meaning.  Did the stage as written use "split" anywhere in it? If it did, please quote what the stage description said.

Doc replies: I haven't seen the stage description.  I have seen the target layout at our club workday on Tuesday.  I don't think I have ever seen the term "Split Shotgun Targets" used in our club stage scenarios.  Usually they simply say engage the shotgun targets in any order.  About half the stages will give the shooter the choice of firearms order.  Others will simply dictate which gun to start with ( almost never shotgun) 

Thanks for the clarification.    So I should  interpret the rule about safe to leave the shooters hand ( "restaged for future use") as meaning with NO shells in the Mag tube.

 

 

[Legendary Lawman]

The intent of the rule on how many rounds can be loaded in the shotgun, as indicated above, is for the total targets to be shot, up to 6, even if the targets require movement to shoot all six.  The rule was put in place to restrict shooters from overloading the shotgun such as loading 5 for a 4 target array etc.

Restaging the shotgun for further use is a different problem.  At the current time, if you break up shooting all the shotgun targets by using another firearm in between shotgun targets, it is being restaged for further use and must follow the that rule: 

Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)

The reason the 2023 rules have not come out yet is that the Wild Bunch ROC is in discussions with SASS over suggested changes for 2023.  The "restaging" rule is one of those to be reviewed.  We hope to finish this review during EOT.  In the meantime, the restaging rule in the book and shown above is in effect.

[Garrison Joe]

LL - this is the troublesome statement:

Quote

Shotgun magazines may be loaded with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence. Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position.

More than one shotgun SEQUENCE means loading table count is limited to what the first sequence requires,by this rule.  Which sometimes is different than the safe condition when restaged for further use rule you quoted.  If this is not what we all think the rules should force us to do, then the "initial" word needs to be removed, and even better, clearly state "the number of rounds required for ALL shotgun targets" of the stage.

Thanks!  GJ

[Garrison Joe]

1 hour ago, Doc Holloman said:

So I should  interpret the rule about safe to leave the shooters hand ( "restaged for future use") as meaning with NO shells in the Mag tube.

Think you need to wait for the revised 2023 rules to come out.  If in mean time, you want to be totally "safe" from misunderstanding of the rules by yourself or the spotters/RO, then yes, restage your shotgun with no rounds left in mag tube IF you still need to use it again during stage.  Removes all argument.

Ouch. GJ

Edited February 10, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[Legendary Lawman]

GJ makes a good point and I should have mentioned something about changing the  wording in my last posting.  The problem has been noted and the rule about the number of rounds you can load will be reworded for clarification.

On the issue of "restaging for further use", the current rule stated in my last posting is what is in force at this time.

 

[Tully Mars]

The rifle has the same wording, regarding when it's safe to leave the shooter's hands.

It might help if we think of the shotgun as a rifle? Cowboy allows a rifle to leave the shooters hands when the hammer is down on an empty with rounds in the magazine, when restaging for further use. 

"Initial target sequence" , seems to be the confusing wording. We all know what happens if we overload and use the overloaded ammo, so maybe drop that wording and leave the up to 6 rounds for shotgun, and up to 10 rounds for rifle? If a stage writer wants the shooter to load on the clock, they simply write that into the stage.

Tully

[J. Frank Norfleet]

The rules committee has an impossible task of writing rules so that no one can misinterpret them. I still believe that the "Basketball Traveling Rule" means that with a long-gun I can take a step with each shot just like dribbling the basketball. But, sigh . . . I get DQ'ed.

JFN

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

This is a good thread.

The language in question is under “Range Operations”, not safety.  Is it treated as a Stage Convention that could be overridden or clarified by the stage writer?

[Legendary Lawman]

YES!