PapaGrande

 

Seeing more Model 12s being used.  So ... these are 97s with an internal hammer?  Those of you who prefer the Model 12 to the 97 - why so?

 

Smoother, more reliable, easier and less expensive to maintain and less expensive to purchase.  Next to the venerable 870, the M1912 may be the best pump shotgun ever.

PG - Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch are 2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations.  Accept each as a stand alone - shoot one or the other or both and forget about any integration.  Okie Dokie? 

 

Nope.  There are no real safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match.  There are very real political issues with some SASS groups I have learned.

 

Your comment about "2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations" is an excuse, not a reason.

After creating this thread and taking part in its discussion, doing the same over at the SASS Wire (http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227400), doing some additional reading, talking to a few more people in person and spending some time digesting all the information I have reached this conclusion:

 

There are no real safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match.  The safety/technical items that were offered as reasons for not allowing WBers to shoot SASS matches are such non-issues or so easily overcome that I personally view them as excuses.  Empirical proof and logic simply doesn't allow for another conclusion.  As others have pointed out it's all about "politics" and bigotry.

 

For the record I also learned that quite a few SASS clubs DO INDEED allow WBers to take part in their matches.  It was very nice to make that discovery!

 

The resistance to allowing WBers to take part in SASS matches by some SASS groups stems from a manifold of reasons.  I think the most important reason is the culture of many SASS groups.  For many, assuming their western persona for a day or weekend, engaging in fellowship with their friends and simply getting away and taking part in the shoot are the primary reasons they attend SASS events.  These reasons are far more important to them than competition, marksmanship, historical accuracy, etc., etc. which may (or may not) be of greater interest to a given WBer.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with that  -- it's largely those qualities that make SASS a success.  It's just the way it is.

 

I think difficult, even boorish behavior by some SASSers (far less common in real life than on the SASS Wire) is spawned by their desire to "keep things just as they are" because they personally conclude (even if they may not realize it) that doing so is the best way to maintain the enjoyment they currently derive from taking part in SASS events.  I think SASS tolerates and even encourages such behavior to a degree because it's quite literally "good for business" -- at least for now. 

 

Clearly some individual SASS groups have wider/clearer views of this and other issues and when combined with some empirical proof they realize that there are no safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match so they allow it.  Good for them!  I wish I lived near such a SASS group!

 

Thanks to everyone participating in the two threads.  It was quite educational for me.

 

 

In the early days of Wild Bunch shooting some clubs tried having a "Wild Bunch posse" running in conjunction with the CAS match. It was NOT successful. The WBAS shooters didn't like it and the CAS shooters didn't like it. The two sports are too different. Many reasons for the failure to run the two sports simultaneously have already been listed.

 

Why didn't they like it?  Too slow?  Not challenging enough?

Also, a lot of cowboy stages aren't written with a safe place to stage a 1911 when the shooter is finished with it or it becomes unusable in a stage.

 

Maybe in their holsters or where SASSers stage their revolvers?

And one big one that makes a huge difference is that most ROs in a cowboy match aren't familiar with the rules of clearing the 1911.

 

I would hope that any individual who is capable of ROing a SASS match should very easily be able to learn how to clear a M1911.  In all actuality I would hope they would already have enough general gun knowledge...

Because WB is not just SASS with a different handgun.

 

Because WB ticks off some cowboy shooters when they see it shot, hear about it being shot, or have it shot on their own posse.

 

Because WB uses different rules and that might make some shooters' brains explode.

 

Because there would be too much brass to have to shag.

 

Because folks would forget to check the model 12.

 

Because a WB shooter might whoop up on them and take overall.

 

Because the targets would be too close and too large for a WB shooter.

 

Because there would not be enough targets to be shot.

 

Because no one would pick up and return empty magazines.

 

Because someone might pick up a fired gun other than the shooter.

 

 

Pick any number of your choices from the reasons above and you might have a start.  ;D

 

Besides, one meaning of matriculation is enrollment and it would not be much like going back to school to shoot WB in a Cowboy match.

 

:) ;) :D ;D :o

 

 

Really, though, WB is significantly different and would be real limited at a Cowboy shoot.  I like the additional venue to shoot at, with WB being separate, being tougher stages, requiring more accuracy and more ability to handle recoil.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Thanks for the comments.  They made me laugh -- and some made me shake my head knowingly.  I don't think that there shouldn't be a separate WB group and all, but it would be nice if a solo WBer could shoot a SASS match as a WBer, simply because around here, SASS matches are common and WB matches are few and far between.

 

I realize the targeting wouldn't be all that challenging but it would still be fun.

Why doesn't SASS allow Wild Bunchers to compete in "standard" SASS matches as just another category or two?  Too often it seems like the Wild Bunch is treated as a "side match."

 

Is there a technical reason?  Would a .45ACP round damage metal targets at the short distances used in SASS?  If it is, could it be handled by setting a maximum power factor?

 

Or is SASS concerned (as they seem to be when it comes to the idea adult rimfire) that too many people would matriculate from "standard" SASS to WB?  Thanks.

Maybe I will make-up a uniform for a SEVEN star Mexican Generalissimo AKA "Maximum Leader."

I'm curious about how true-to-history WB military uniforms need to be with regard to rank?  I believe the year depicted in the WB is 1913?  In 1913 the US did not have a 5 star general (Pershing was a long ways away from that distinction) and it has not "really" ever had a field marshall or six star general status -- although George Washington was effectively the Field Marshall of the US.

 

Anywho, would it be in poor taste to craft a WB costume that would depict the US Field Marshall/Six Star General of the time?  All in jest of course.  Just how does one choose their rank when crafting a WB military uniform?  Thanks.

Okay. Don't get your panties in a bunch... LOL

 

But having known Mr. Cooper for quite some time, God bless him/RIP. I would never had said that in front or near him....LOL

 

Just sayin.

 

I don't wearing "panties."  Are you psychologically projecting, perchance?

 

Training places like Gunsite suggest a ball cap and a buttoned-up collar.

 

Gunsite?  With the founder looking like this for years and years?

 

http://www.frfrogspad.com/hat.jpg

 

8)

 

But, then again, there's this:

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I guess the current Gunsiters don't want to look like dorks?

Only thing you will find out if you wear a hat without a full brim is that hot brass from your rifle will wreck your concentration when it goes down the inside your collar in the back.  I practice in a ball hat most of the time and a loose collar can be painful.  .45 brass gets very hot. A full brim hat is a real good idea.  Same for Indian type headbands or no headgear. Hot brass between your glasses and face as well.  If you can't stand cowboy action shooters and won't wear a cowboy hat think of it as a farmers hat.  Most combat shooters that shoot with us don't have a problem.  It is just a different game. Adapt.

 

Just button-up yer collar before a run...

 

99% of 3Gun, USPSA and IDPA shooters wear caps and they sling a lot of brass.  Training places like Gunsite suggest a ball cap and a buttoned-up collar.

Not sure what a paperboy cap is.

 

Don't worry Papa Grande, it is hard to take a guys wearing pink shirts with ruffles seriously.

 

I was in a rural church recently.  They had a bunch of photos on the wall from the turn of the last century.  And I marveled at the number of ranch folks wearing the newsboy caps.  Now that I know they are legal I think I will get me one.

JFN

 

They're comfortable, light, keep the sun off and they won't shift on your head as you're running to the next position.  Do you know how "cowboys" dressed around here (California) around 1900?  White long-sleeved shirts which pretty much look like a man's  simple dress shirt today.  Clean at the beginning of the day and filthy by the end based on family photos.

 

Some wore western hats, more it seemed wore something similar to a "trilby", a derby (yes, a derby) or a newsboy cap.  The pants looked like dungarees and the boots looked like ropers or lace-up ropers.

 

Not at all like some of the silly CAS costumes.

Hope ya have thick skin if ya wear that hat around anywhere Team Brothel Boys is shootin....LOL

We have kind of a former guy that we truly gave a hard time to. Just warnin ya.... Just sayin...

It won't be you, so please try to understand. Just sayin. LOL

 

Thanks

Bodie

 

What?

Pg, Corcoran jump boots are perfectly legal and are in the spirit of WB. I wear these and know of several other competitors that wear them. They have the correct sole and the correct look and are very comfortable. With leggings they look a lot like the original marching shoe pre ww1. In a civilian costume with the britches leg over them they look like just a early 1900's lace up boot. I put leather laces in mine and that made them look even better and they don't untie accidentally.  Dusty Boddams

 

Thanks, I appreciate the input.  The Corcoran's make a lot of sense in that shoes/boots like them were made back in the "Wild Bunch" days but they also stand out to some as being WWII boots...

 

I've shot three gun matches for a number of years with some success.  When I trade my Glock pistol/Benelli shotgun/Colt rifle for a Ruger pistol/Winchester shotgun/Pedersoli rifle, I would like to try to be outfitted in a manner that will let me shoot pretty much in the same manner I do for three gun.

 

I think I'm just going to wear a newsboy cap, a Henley shirt with rolled-up sleeves, Levis 501's and the Corcorans and be done with it.  Thanks again.

Yes I know what SASS says about MODERN combat boots in CAS.

 

I would not think the old brown lace up combat boots from byegone eras would fall in that characterization.

 

So my observation stands -- old brown lace up boots should be fine with any WB costume, doughboy or cowboy.

 

I do not understand the fallacy of my thinking here.

 

I'm not certain but I don't know that the "modern" adjective is expressly part of the SASS language pertaining to this matter.  I'd like to wear a pair of old cordovan Corcoran boots I have.  They don't have rubber soles or heels that would offer any sort of tactical advantage but they also didn't yet existing during the time depicted in The Wild Bunch.

Pink tux shirts, pink and purple boas.... Hey, period correct. Maybe in a New Orleans Brothel.... But we didn't say "where" it is period correct. Just sayin.

 

Everything I mentioned was in the actual movie...

 

Flat caps from which the newsboy cap derives may be traced back to the 14th century in Northern England.  I've seen  Daguerreotypes of the Old West dating to the latter 19th Century and some of the men and boys are wearing this type of cap. They may not follow the CAS rules but they are authentic to the place and time.

 

I was thinking about wearing a pink Henley shirt with a newsboy cap and lace-up boots along with a period correct set of Packard fisher-stripe coveralls but I cannot ascertain for certain what brand of convertible was owned by the Mexican general?

I was thinking that I would like to wear a newsboy cap, simple long-sleeved work shirt, dungarees and lace-up boots. 

 

I definitely would not do the ball cap/t-shirt/running shorts/sneakers look, but I also don't want to wear a heavy-duty costume either.

I'm curious about where the rules are codified for The Wild Bunch matches in terms of costumes?  I understand what's specifically prohibited and what's suggested.  What I don't see are discussions about clothing that was definitely in the movie (ex. paperboy caps) yet no one seems to talk about them.

 

Any help would be deeply appreciated.  Thanks.

I want to clarify the position of the Wild Bunch Committee on the ongoing costume subject. You are more than welcome to shoot any WB matches including the Nationals and World Championships with any legal clothing.  You will not be thought less of if you wear the minimum allowed.  If you have any questions just look up the rules.  Our goal is to encourage as many to shoot WB as possible.  We want to draw as many from outside SASS as possible while maintaining the tremendous support we have with present CAS shooters who also shoot WB matches.  We are shooting a sport set in a specific period so you are encouraged to either go all out with military dress of the period or if that does not move you jeans, work boots(by SASS rules.  Look it up) and a hat or headband or whatever.  Again look it up. I will be shooting in jeans, my Redwing boots, black shirt and black hat this year to emphasize simple is ok.  This is first and foremost a serious shooting contest with power factor and large caliber requirements.  If you want to look like Zapata, Pike Lyle or just wear late 19th or early 20 Century ranch wear you will likely be fine.  Again the rules.  CAS gear is usually just fine as well.  I usually just shoot in my regular CAS stuff. Pay attention to the boots.  No lug soles or modern combat type boots.  We want to have fun, shoot big calibers, shoot 1911s, rifles and shotguns, burn up lots of ammo and celebrate the transition period between the Old West and Modern times.

 

Some things to ponder:  This is 3 gun you can shoot with lead bullets at steel targets on pistol bays.  It is much less expensive than AR ammo, slugs, buckshot, and jacketed pistol bullets.

 

There is no shooting under cars, through low ports and 50 yard dashes involved.  You have a chance of doing well even you are not 20 years old.

 

We have added military bolt action rifles as a side shoot this year.  Lots and lots of fun and very inexpensive to get started in.

 

You can shoot mil spec 1911 one handed in the Traditional Class or modern 1911s in the Modern class.  Just .45 and full size 5 inch pistols.

 

We shoot both big and small targets.  You cannot just wave the guns at targets and expect to do well in WB.

 

Women and juniors can operate 1911s just fine.  Wicked Felina is very small and thinks the 1911 is the easiest gun to shoot that she has.

 

Come play.

 

Can you please list the model # of your boots?  I'm not sure what's meant by "lugged soles" which are prohibited.  I cannot wear pull-on boots.  If I had to I could not shoot WB matches.  Are there other options?  Thanks.