Cardboard Cowboy

Well I do have to thank y’all for bring up the question of 1911 gun weight. You made me open up the safe, one of them at least, and weigh a bunch of guns. Weighed a total of 32 guns, and then stopped as there was no need to go further. I have pictures of all these on the scale, no point in posting them here and taking up a bunch of space. Unless y’all want visible proof. But I do appreciate the photo’s that all have posted, I like looking at other guns. Prior to weighing every gun I verified my scale with two 50 gram certified weights, for a total of 100 grams. Scale hit 100 gram’s every time, except twice, it read 101 grams. I’m not concerned with a .035 ounce error. And it would be on the heavy side. I weighed a total of 12 traditional guns. Six that I built and six commercial guns. Of the 12 traditional guns only one failed weight testing. It was one I built and it has Woolly Mammoth Ivory grips on it. They are very heavy. This gun failed by .4 ounce. These grips weigh in at 2.8 ounces. They are actually heavier then a Tripp 7 round mag, which only weighs 2.4 ounces. So I could easily get the weight down. It’s my wife’s gun and she loves the grips. Only uses this gun locally. At any major shoot, she’s using a Springfield Armory, which weigh’s in at 38.3 ounce with a Tripp mag inserted. Of the commercial traditional guns weighed. Two Springfields, two colts and two Rock Island Armory’s. The heaviest was an old Springfield SS gun at 39.7 ounce with an OEM mag. All others were at least 1.5 ounces under the 40 ounce limit, with a Tripp mag. Onto Modern guns. 20 guns were weighed, 10 built be me. Commercial were six Les Baer’s, two Kimber and two Wilson. Only three failed the weight of 42 ounces, again all three I built. Two have Damascus steel slides on them, which are much heavier then the forged slides of Caspian and Les Baer. And the Damascus was only 42.2, and these have Mammoth grips also. The last one weighed a whopping 43.3 ounce, but it had the Mammoth grips and a Trijicon SRO red dot on it. So does not count. All other modern guns fell well within the 42 ounce with an empty 7 round mag. I looked at the Wilson web site and none of their guns are listed over 42 ounces, empty. And their empty is with a 8 round mag with a base pad. Now I understand we will run into problems with scales used not being calibrated/verified, but that is critical. When we are only talking about few ounces, you need to verify the scale with certified weights, not just start increasing weight limit’s on the gun.

Well yes, 1911A1's do really weigh that much, almost. Steel frames at least. Standard government issued guns have a spec of 39 oz., empty with mag inserted. I just weighed four government issued 1911A1's (built in the early to mid 40's) and the average was 39.6 oz, with a government mag inserted. And these all have the plastic grip's, grips average weight is .5 oz. So the grips are very light. On my current traditional gun I really had to put it on a diet to keep it under 40 ounces, with an empty mag inserted. Frame is Les Baer forged, slide is forged Caspian and then all other parts. I use thin grip's (plastic) which have been lightened. My final, crappy, part to get me under the 40 ounce was the use of a Colt plastic MSH. That saved me almost 1.5 ounce. Final weight of my gun is 38.3 ounces. With a standard steel MSH I may hit 39.8 to possible 40 ounce. Depending on scale used. Was not worth the risk of going to a large match and get called out for being overweight. And comparing a steel frame 1911A1 to an aluminum framed DE is apple's to oranges. Your DE has an aluminum frame. An aluminum frame can weigh up to 6-10 ounces less than the same steel frame. And if you did compare it to your DE, claimed wight of 48.6 ounce, 8.6 ounce is a huge difference. That's the wight of three 45 acp magazines. So even though you're certain it's a misprint, misprinted on both their website and in the manual for the gun, maybe it does not weigh 42 ounce. But I bet it weighs very close to 40. Is it worth the risk of traveling to Land Run or EOT not knowing what your gun weighs? Drop it on a scale, with an empty mag, and see what it really is.

But he’s garrison joe, and thinks he is god about everything firearms related. I remember many years ago when he chastised me for a very simple question. I have no use or desire for his “want to be” knowledge. Have a nice day joe. cardboard

Hey Broomstick, I would check the weight on that gun, the website states 42 oz, unloaded. Not sure if this weight is with an unloaded mag or not. Traditional unloaded weight is 40 oz, with an unloaded mag inserted, per SHB.

Ahh, Wednesday morning and this horse is still kind of twitching. I was really hoping someone with actual authority would have chimed in and answered this. But oh well, It's like waiting for the VA to make a decision, very slow and hope you get the desired outcome. I will also say I do not intend to start using a SxS in WB. But I did actually shot a stage at a North Carolina match recently and did use my SxS. It was the perfect scenario. Only two shotgun targets, sitting right next to each other. SxS kinda stoked will sure beat a pump every time, at least for me in this situation. Everyone called me a gamer, "NOT ME", I said. Ok final comment from me on this post, to try and lighten it up a bit. Maybe my attempt at humor will wake that horse up, and he can run far away from this post. Many years ago when I was working at our HQ, we had one of our instructors who taught the mini gun and 20mm armament system on the Cobra helicopter. He really was not a good instructor. He would basically read verbatim from the lesson plan to the students. If anyone had a question this instructor would re-read the same exact verbiage, except he would read it really slow. Then he would ask, "got it?" Repeat this action if questioned again. Then move onto the next lesson plan. This guy was the perfect example of an individual who experiences the phenomenon called "Illusory Truth Effect". So I will continue to give a no call on this situation, if it ever come's up. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. Hey about a new Mantra: If you see a SxS cycled-it's cycled If you think a SxS is cycled-it's cycled If you think the SxS is open-it's cycled If shooter throws it on table, not opened-It's not cycled Y'all try and have a nice hump day

Thanks Marshall. I do agree with that. But I still have an issue/concern. First the Cowboy handbook has no bearing on what we do in WB. But I will follow your recommendation to look at both handbooks, to include the new ROBS course. Agree both ROBS and SHB for both Cowboy and WB state, safe to leave shooters hands "empty", for the shotgun reference. But if you read in the MSV section, for Cowboy, bullet 1 and 2 both reference leaving an empty in the action or chamber of a long gun as being a penalty. So this penalty follow's with the "safe to leave shooters hand" statement. I would also emphasize "EMPTY", as this is the correct call. Now the problem is in the ROBS and SHB for WB. I agree that both ROBS and SHB for WB have the "safe to leave shooters hands" statement, and that condition is "Empty". But in the WB SHB (ROBS does not mention this issue for WB) under MSV infractions, there is no mention of leaving empties in the action or chamber of a long gun as a penalty. So this does not follow with the safe condition to leave shooters hands. And where/what penalty would be assigned? Nothing is stated in any of the penalties overview for this condition. Reading further down in both ROBS and SHB we start to run into conflicting statements. Starting with ROBS unit 10: CAS v WB - Key Elements. Third bullet is "There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is "OPEN" or that the shooter has cycled". Not going to get into the fight on whether it's possible to cycle a SxS. By opening the gun and cocking the hammers the requirement has been met for "OPEN", and the result, according to the new ROBS book, is no penalty. But then I'm also assuming that a hull is referencing a fired, empty shot shell. If it's not, maybe that's where my problem is. WB SHB also has this same no penalty statement for leaving an empty case/hull in the safety section for all firearms. So if your statement "and I emphasize is, "EMPTY", is the official ruling. You will need to remove all those other statements (from the WB ROBS & SHB) of no penalty for an empty case/hull, in addition to the PO Pocket Card. The RO Pocket card only list one MSV, and it is not for empty hulls. You will also need to come up with an addition to the MSV infractions to award a penalty for this action. The way it is now is very conflicting. If we use your emphasis of "EMPTY" what is the penalty and where can that be found for WB? Depending on how this goes, you should also look at the verbiage for Rifle Conventions (in both BODS & SHB) as it has the same empty case in the gun, it is a NO CALL-as long as the gun was cycled. But then almost directly under that statement is the "safe to leave shooters hands, Empty" statement. Again just trying to get this straight in my head. Because the way I'm reading this, no matter what call I make. There cannot be a penalty as nothing is listed in the Penalties Overview covering this situation. Thanks buddy.

Hehe, Still fail to see any actual rule referenced above. But if I use your reasoning and think that a SxS cannot "cycle the action", I might buy it. I'm still calling no call. Your statement of the SxS must be empty as it is not "cycle able" holds no water for me. When the ROC tells me different, I'll change my call to a MSV. Have a great day.

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse. Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am. I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up. But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book. As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled.. It’s called a Break action or Break-open action. Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round. The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun. Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS. We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun. It will be cocked.” From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun. If it is open or been cycled. It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario. So did shooter open the SxS? If yes, no call. Was the gun cycled? If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked. So another yes. No penalty for empty hull in a SxS. In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”? Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute. The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute. So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled. So onto the last issue. Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled. Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage? As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary? It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB. Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”. The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB. There was no Action Cycled at this time. In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added. But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term. Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action). You will get a no call from me. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post. Y’all have a great day. Got my flame suit on

I never thought the rifle was even in the equation. But so many were/are bitching about it. That is not the important gun in this sport. My ranking is, Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle. Thanks Bogus. And again, congratulations to Jane. CC

So possibly "the sky is falling" over .38's is mute, as Lady Jane just demonstrated. Do you know what the top four shooters were using, as LJ finished 5th OA with a .45 colt? I never thought the use of a .38 rifle would really change how a top grade 1911 shooter finished. A huge congrats to Lady Jane. CC

Boomstick, Do you shoot Cowboy or just Wild Bunch? If you do shoot Cowboy are you shooting a 45C or 38spl rifle in Cowboy? To me makes no difference on the rifle, I can actually shoot my 45C faster than my Cowboy 38spl. I would prefer to load the 38spl as I load for three folks shooting WB. I can shoot my 38 for 1/2 the cost of the larger 45. With the rifle being downplayed so much we are looking at maybe 60-70 rifle rounds total for a large match. Compared to almost 300 rounds, or more, of 45acp. The match is won with mag changes, not the rifle. I don't care one way our the other. I'll continue to shoot my 45C for WB. Now the other two shooters may want 38's, but there is no advantage in my opinion.

Very nice. Are they available? Ive got a harrison retro on one of my guns and have been told it may not be legal for traditional. Thx.

Who's hammer is that? Looks a little like a Harrison, or C&S Marine. just curious.

First off Joe, I was not attacking your character. I was responding to being called a Hard A$$ and looking to award penalties that I never mentioned and never even thought of awarding. I also don't like comments of what my assumptions are, when none were ever implied. back to the situation...... What I was looking for was a proper clarification. The problem with the simpler way to interpret this rule, it is a rule that states a specific occurrence. To make it a no call would be great, but that is not what we have. I know we're not cowboys shooting 1911's, but our rules are sure going the same way as the cowboys. I see you're reasoning on if the slide is forward, on a reload, and shooter racks the slide and no round is ejected it's a no call. There was nothing in the chamber during the reload, therefore it cannot be a tactical reload. But then can we not also apply this same logic/thinking to the model 12 shotgun? Why must the shooter declare a model 12, and then pull the trigger and show the TO the weapon is not cocked? If he fails to do this menial task it's a SDQ. If by chance the gun is cocked as soon as the buzzer goes off and he attempts to rack it, guess what happens. He's got egg on his face and just earned a SDQ. Since the slide forward is only a MS maybe we should go the route of the finger in the trigger guard? It is also a MS yet in the rule book it states that "Typically a shooter is given a verbal warning, FINGER! the first time. Then a repeat earns the penalty. So maybe we should make the slide forward a warning the first time, as the shooter has gained no advantage, it's actually a dis-advantage. Naturally this is only if there is no movement of the shooter with the slide forward. Cardboard Cowboy

Hey JFN, I do know what causes slide lock malfunctions. I've been building 1911's now for going on 35+ years. Took my apprentanceship at Rock Island Arsenal (DOD one, not that fakey Rock Island Armory) back in the late 70's. Been working for various governemnt agencys since as a weapon specialist/gun smith. That's what I hate most about these forums, you never know who/what the capabilities of the person on the other end of wire are. Have a great day. Cardboard Cowboy