Cardboard Cowboy

Hey Broomstick, I would check the weight on that gun, the website states 42 oz, unloaded. Not sure if this weight is with an unloaded mag or not. Traditional unloaded weight is 40 oz, with an unloaded mag inserted, per SHB.

Ahh, Wednesday morning and this horse is still kind of twitching. I was really hoping someone with actual authority would have chimed in and answered this. But oh well, It's like waiting for the VA to make a decision, very slow and hope you get the desired outcome. I will also say I do not intend to start using a SxS in WB. But I did actually shot a stage at a North Carolina match recently and did use my SxS. It was the perfect scenario. Only two shotgun targets, sitting right next to each other. SxS kinda stoked will sure beat a pump every time, at least for me in this situation. Everyone called me a gamer, "NOT ME", I said. Ok final comment from me on this post, to try and lighten it up a bit. Maybe my attempt at humor will wake that horse up, and he can run far away from this post. Many years ago when I was working at our HQ, we had one of our instructors who taught the mini gun and 20mm armament system on the Cobra helicopter. He really was not a good instructor. He would basically read verbatim from the lesson plan to the students. If anyone had a question this instructor would re-read the same exact verbiage, except he would read it really slow. Then he would ask, "got it?" Repeat this action if questioned again. Then move onto the next lesson plan. This guy was the perfect example of an individual who experiences the phenomenon called "Illusory Truth Effect". So I will continue to give a no call on this situation, if it ever come's up. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. Hey about a new Mantra: If you see a SxS cycled-it's cycled If you think a SxS is cycled-it's cycled If you think the SxS is open-it's cycled If shooter throws it on table, not opened-It's not cycled Y'all try and have a nice hump day

Thanks Marshall. I do agree with that. But I still have an issue/concern. First the Cowboy handbook has no bearing on what we do in WB. But I will follow your recommendation to look at both handbooks, to include the new ROBS course. Agree both ROBS and SHB for both Cowboy and WB state, safe to leave shooters hands "empty", for the shotgun reference. But if you read in the MSV section, for Cowboy, bullet 1 and 2 both reference leaving an empty in the action or chamber of a long gun as being a penalty. So this penalty follow's with the "safe to leave shooters hand" statement. I would also emphasize "EMPTY", as this is the correct call. Now the problem is in the ROBS and SHB for WB. I agree that both ROBS and SHB for WB have the "safe to leave shooters hands" statement, and that condition is "Empty". But in the WB SHB (ROBS does not mention this issue for WB) under MSV infractions, there is no mention of leaving empties in the action or chamber of a long gun as a penalty. So this does not follow with the safe condition to leave shooters hands. And where/what penalty would be assigned? Nothing is stated in any of the penalties overview for this condition. Reading further down in both ROBS and SHB we start to run into conflicting statements. Starting with ROBS unit 10: CAS v WB - Key Elements. Third bullet is "There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is "OPEN" or that the shooter has cycled". Not going to get into the fight on whether it's possible to cycle a SxS. By opening the gun and cocking the hammers the requirement has been met for "OPEN", and the result, according to the new ROBS book, is no penalty. But then I'm also assuming that a hull is referencing a fired, empty shot shell. If it's not, maybe that's where my problem is. WB SHB also has this same no penalty statement for leaving an empty case/hull in the safety section for all firearms. So if your statement "and I emphasize is, "EMPTY", is the official ruling. You will need to remove all those other statements (from the WB ROBS & SHB) of no penalty for an empty case/hull, in addition to the PO Pocket Card. The RO Pocket card only list one MSV, and it is not for empty hulls. You will also need to come up with an addition to the MSV infractions to award a penalty for this action. The way it is now is very conflicting. If we use your emphasis of "EMPTY" what is the penalty and where can that be found for WB? Depending on how this goes, you should also look at the verbiage for Rifle Conventions (in both BODS & SHB) as it has the same empty case in the gun, it is a NO CALL-as long as the gun was cycled. But then almost directly under that statement is the "safe to leave shooters hands, Empty" statement. Again just trying to get this straight in my head. Because the way I'm reading this, no matter what call I make. There cannot be a penalty as nothing is listed in the Penalties Overview covering this situation. Thanks buddy.

Hehe, Still fail to see any actual rule referenced above. But if I use your reasoning and think that a SxS cannot "cycle the action", I might buy it. I'm still calling no call. Your statement of the SxS must be empty as it is not "cycle able" holds no water for me. When the ROC tells me different, I'll change my call to a MSV. Have a great day.

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse. Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am. I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up. But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book. As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled.. It’s called a Break action or Break-open action. Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round. The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun. Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS. We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun. It will be cocked.” From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun. If it is open or been cycled. It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario. So did shooter open the SxS? If yes, no call. Was the gun cycled? If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked. So another yes. No penalty for empty hull in a SxS. In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”? Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute. The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute. So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled. So onto the last issue. Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled. Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage? As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary? It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB. Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”. The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB. There was no Action Cycled at this time. In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added. But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term. Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action). You will get a no call from me. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post. Y’all have a great day. Got my flame suit on

I never thought the rifle was even in the equation. But so many were/are bitching about it. That is not the important gun in this sport. My ranking is, Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle. Thanks Bogus. And again, congratulations to Jane. CC

So possibly "the sky is falling" over .38's is mute, as Lady Jane just demonstrated. Do you know what the top four shooters were using, as LJ finished 5th OA with a .45 colt? I never thought the use of a .38 rifle would really change how a top grade 1911 shooter finished. A huge congrats to Lady Jane. CC

Boomstick, Do you shoot Cowboy or just Wild Bunch? If you do shoot Cowboy are you shooting a 45C or 38spl rifle in Cowboy? To me makes no difference on the rifle, I can actually shoot my 45C faster than my Cowboy 38spl. I would prefer to load the 38spl as I load for three folks shooting WB. I can shoot my 38 for 1/2 the cost of the larger 45. With the rifle being downplayed so much we are looking at maybe 60-70 rifle rounds total for a large match. Compared to almost 300 rounds, or more, of 45acp. The match is won with mag changes, not the rifle. I don't care one way our the other. I'll continue to shoot my 45C for WB. Now the other two shooters may want 38's, but there is no advantage in my opinion.

Very nice. Are they available? Ive got a harrison retro on one of my guns and have been told it may not be legal for traditional. Thx.

Who's hammer is that? Looks a little like a Harrison, or C&S Marine. just curious.

First off Joe, I was not attacking your character. I was responding to being called a Hard A$$ and looking to award penalties that I never mentioned and never even thought of awarding. I also don't like comments of what my assumptions are, when none were ever implied. back to the situation...... What I was looking for was a proper clarification. The problem with the simpler way to interpret this rule, it is a rule that states a specific occurrence. To make it a no call would be great, but that is not what we have. I know we're not cowboys shooting 1911's, but our rules are sure going the same way as the cowboys. I see you're reasoning on if the slide is forward, on a reload, and shooter racks the slide and no round is ejected it's a no call. There was nothing in the chamber during the reload, therefore it cannot be a tactical reload. But then can we not also apply this same logic/thinking to the model 12 shotgun? Why must the shooter declare a model 12, and then pull the trigger and show the TO the weapon is not cocked? If he fails to do this menial task it's a SDQ. If by chance the gun is cocked as soon as the buzzer goes off and he attempts to rack it, guess what happens. He's got egg on his face and just earned a SDQ. Since the slide forward is only a MS maybe we should go the route of the finger in the trigger guard? It is also a MS yet in the rule book it states that "Typically a shooter is given a verbal warning, FINGER! the first time. Then a repeat earns the penalty. So maybe we should make the slide forward a warning the first time, as the shooter has gained no advantage, it's actually a dis-advantage. Naturally this is only if there is no movement of the shooter with the slide forward. Cardboard Cowboy

Hey JFN, I do know what causes slide lock malfunctions. I've been building 1911's now for going on 35+ years. Took my apprentanceship at Rock Island Arsenal (DOD one, not that fakey Rock Island Armory) back in the late 70's. Been working for various governemnt agencys since as a weapon specialist/gun smith. That's what I hate most about these forums, you never know who/what the capabilities of the person on the other end of wire are. Have a great day. Cardboard Cowboy

I never said anything about assuming he bumped the slide release. Might need to re-read what I wrote. I said a few times I think it was the mag that caused it. Not looking at awarding any MS, hence the reason I told him to lock the slide back! He did have a secure lock, hence the reason the slide locked until he dropped the mag. "A pretty clear case of "looking for something to penalize the shooter on" from what has been stated here." Nope the way I see it, let a possible penility go on one shooter, you penilize all others. This is the reason I told him to lock the slide back. If I wanted to award a penility, to my friend, I would have kept my mouth shut and then awarded the MS for loading a mag with the slide forward. I'll wait for some powers that be to answer the question. I don't want to hear about common sense, it has nothing to do with common sense. The rules state "THE ONLY EXCEPTION", which this case does not fall into. The lock worked, then some other action caused it to fail. You also mentioned: AKA "Tactical Reload", might want to re-read what I wrote, for a second time, and look up what a Tactical Reload is. Never said anything about a round in the chamber. Good Luck to you CC

That is exactly how I saw it JFN. The slide lock worked as it was supposed to. It would have been completely different if the slide locked at first and then went forward prior to the mag being released. That would have been a slide lock malfunction. Since it was only one mag that was causing this, we have a mag malfunction, which is not mentioned in the ruling on reloads. The way I read the rules, especially since "THE ONLY EXCEPTION" is very large and bold, "is if after firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails"~does not say if when removing mag slide closes. And I would have done the same on locking the slide back if it closed for any reason, muscle memory just goes into work and it is a non thought. Cardboard Cowboy.

There is no contention between us GJ, we're actually good friends. Just trying to get the right call for this so I will better apply it, if/when it happens again. I see so much more disparity in WB, as to the rules being enforced properly. It should have been a no call, but with the pace of the shooter and the slide going forward, I just yelled slide when it closed. Throughout the rest of the match this never happened again, he never used that possible bad mag after this incident. It is still my belief that there was/is nothing wrong with the slide lock on his weapon. It was the mag that caused it. Thanks for the reply. Cardboard Cowboy