Artemus

If the rules are in the TG's hands and every WB TG meeting that has occurred had overwhelming support of a 150PF, why don't we put it to a vote and put it to bed. Starting in 2019, we had three years of double digit growth at our State WB matches, then all the rule change rumblings started and we've been down shooters ever since. I know this is localized data, but it is consistent in the adjacent state matches I've shot. I'm from the "Show-Me" state and I really need someone to show me the data to back up this membership change. The size of matches, both CB and WB do not reflect this change. As discussed in the EoT TG meeting if the low PF was a non-isssue then EoT should have felt comfortable running rifle last. Their rifle speed matches and other testing have not provided that comfort. CC I know your range is a lot like ours with most of the stages being covered/enclosed and maybe that's the difference vs the wide open at Ben Avery. If they aren't comfortable running rifle last at the World Championship, I don't feel like it's put to bed. We don't need a category just for those that make PF. Even with this, it would not fix the rifle not last issue unless you have category specific stage instructions. Our club has had zero participation with 38 rifles. I know this has had a few additional shooters at larger matches. However for the most part I have seen about half or more of the 38 shooters come from the existing WB shooter pool.

15lb variable power recoil, 19lb main

Who needs 20% clean when you have more than 20% with SDQ

There were a lot of SDQ. Too many of the adjacent stages had targets painted opposite, in ex. one stage the red was a multi hit and black targets were single hits. The next stage the targets were painted in the opposite way and added to confusion. The kill em all stage, was challenging for the shooters and TO alike since there were only 7 targets to a position and you could not shoot targets at the next position. This lead to lots of clearing guns for movement and SDQ. Every stage was rifle not last, which was found to be needed based on the prior year's speed rifle sidematch with 38s. We need to get back to a 150PF, so we can keep the game playable as you want. First five stages offered a little more flexibility in how the stages were shot vs the last five.

What does this entail, I understand there is an ROC now, but I was hoping to see the follow-up reports mentioned in SASS's evaluation last year. Especially a one year, to try and quantify the change. If progress is being made let's communicate it. Hell, shout it from the roof top. I have communicated directly in the past on at least a few matters. I am more than happy to do so when that seems to be the appropriate method. I fully understand your remark about the impression this leaves with newer WB shooters. However, I would say that posting things like this can provide a barometer to if someone's opinions are shared or unique. Additionally, garnering public support is one of the most effective tools to drive change. CC, I will unabashedly say I was happy to see that you shot the WB match at Land Run. That was one of the best gestures, in seeing someone from "SASS" be it advisory board or otherwise participate in an upper level WB match.

It doesn't sadly, just real tired of everything that's been lost in the last couple of years for nothing to be better. More progress in equal standing was made by EoT in changing the verbage, having a dedicated WB shoot off and awards. Land Run following this lead only helped reinforce what looked like progress. Now we are back to fighting to keep what we had, at least that's how it felt leaving that last TG meeting.

I was hoping so see some "proof is in the pudding" with all the talk of giving Wild Bunch Equal standing. I was disappointed this morning to find the National Championship didn't make the cover. In my mind, there are four national champions. Feel free to say I'm a stick in the mud, but if we really want to promote and grow WB then we should give it recognition as well.

I am a little concerned here, as what may be one of the only things the shooters wanted that managed to get changed in the chaos of the last two years, and you sound inclined to not have it as a main match category in the future. It doesn't help that basically all of the shooters that advocated for TR/DB, developed, and worked through the rule changes have moved on to bigger and better.

Think Colt Hammerless 1903, Mauser 1910/14, etc

Rifle targets at 30-50 yards work great for TR and DB. If you can't get them out far enough, make the targets smaller to balance it out. You will be very hard pressed, to win overall shooting in TR or DB if you are thinking that people will be doing that. The data is out there to back this up. TR and DB are a whole 'nother level of fun on top of WB and I wouldn't have WB without it. I only wish we could bring rifle caliber to the other game.

Restrictions on the 1911 and shooting one handed are the defining aspects of Traditional, but I don't see the need to force a switch. I'll do it if there's a problem, but no other reason. Traditional is usually 25-35% of the matches I attend. Land Run and EoT have the best Traditional/Modern ratio.

Pershing's Pursuit was Missouri State WB up through 2023 (and sort of SW Territorial) and was the first to run DB and TR as main match category in 2023 before it was fully approved. They are two of the best categories, but baffle me when people say "rifle is the least emphasized part of WB." Unnecessary verbiage, that pushes things in the other direction.

"Rifle is the least empathized firearm" in Wild Bunch always bothered me. This is just not the case, and I would challenge that with anyone that felt that way. We the shooters would not have bothered trying to get Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy for years if we didn't like shooting rifles. As for this round count comment, almost every single match I have shot in the Rifle round count is 7-10 per stage and the SG is 4-6. Maybe one 8 SG stage, but clearly not the lower round count. I would encourage people writing things like this shoot in some Wild Bunch matches before building these assumptions. Especially don't take advice from the biggest pair of whiners out of Texas, that I am convinced only shoot in WB matches to complain about them.

I had faith in the system, but after EoT I have a hard time finding any. You mention the new TG system, I assume you were in that meeting as well. We were told then that it's up to the TG to make changes now, but we were not allowed to do so then. Stating that there is "no ROC and not enough WBTG," with no answer to how many WBTG are deemed to be enough to start talking or a timeline for an ROC. We are essentially 18 months from the EoT where this emerged from with no path forward. I would maintain hope if I heard anything about work being done. I loved Wild Bunch. Most if not all of my favorite people to shoot with are there. I liked playing two different games as well (CAS and WB). I haven't seen any new shooters, and the ones that were most passionate and supportive of it are gone. I can't argue with them on why.

No, the TG meeting at EoT was simply to tell us that there is still no ROC, and not enough TGs to make any rule changes. SASS says no rule changes runitl the TGs vote and the ROC approve. About three items were brought up and shot down, as they would not be discussed until the above conditions were met.