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CLAYS? Yeah like it’s readily available… I have: TITEWad, TrailBoss, Titegroup, W231, CFE P, HS6, N320. Not real interested in adding yet another powder.

I may not have the extensive shooting experience or resume of others on this thread, but, having timed it on numerous occasions, there is slightly more than a 1/2 second advantage for me on a 10 shot string, using my .38/357 rifle and loads. Over 10 stages that is quite significant. YMMV. Cheers, FJT

This is a forum, not an airport. There's no need to announce your departure.

I'm glad you have so much success with your target. All steel moves when hit, that's the nature of the beast. Not every club uses AR500 steel. 150PF Rifle, is not a factor in whether clubs, or shooters, don't shoot WB. It's desire only. Shooters can use any SASS legal, .38 and above, rifle and shotgun. Rock Island offers a GI 1911 for 659.00. You can find them cheaper. It's desire, nothing else. And I'm done with this conversation

Blacksmiths are not hitting steel with lead. I have AR500 that has been shot way more than 460 times and it has one ding--from the 20 prac at 3800 fps.

Ditto. The sport looked interesting but I wasn’t interested in spending the money on a .40 cal rifle I would only use for wild bunch. The addition of .38 cal rifles opened up the ability to participate.

Spent many years blacksmithing on steel. You hit a piece of steel 28 times x 20 shooters, the steel reacts differently than hitting it 8 times x 20 shooters. Don't believe it? Grab a piece of 3/8 steel, ar or not, and hit it 460 times and hit another 160 times. Then do this 12 more times. See what the steel tells you. Steel doesn't lie.

Really? Can you show me the numbers? EOT was the most attended. Landrun, when they actually accept WB will be next. Bordertown, for a side match, sells out.

Doubt that is the problem based on the symptom. If you limp wristed it probably would stovepipe. If it ejects, there should be enough energy to feed. The powders you're using are also not ideal for lower velocity .45 Auto, you really should consider using something faster like Clays or something close to it in the burn rate chart if you want to do that, or bumping up the load a bit, it will be more reliable.

Chapo, it seems you are correct about my assumptions from last night! I spent the afternoon at the range again and frankly, now I think the main problem is Limp Wrist syndrome. today, both handguns locked up on me multiple times using my reloads. But Wait it happened again when I used the commercial rounds and I noticed a more significant muzzle flip. As I’ve said in earlier posts, the 1911 is a brand new platform for me and getting data on my reloads led me to use a pistol rest such that I could position my Athlon chrono right under the muzzle. So I reloaded all of the bad rounds into a mag and assumed the correct position and my Ruger and then my Taurus ate every round and 150 more without another issue. As such, I apparently wasn’t necessarily supporting the pistol properly and noticed how much my wrist was flexing with the heavier recoil from the commercial loadsIt seems that this recoil operated monster can’t handle a limp wrist

If those cartridges fit in your chamber, crimp was not the problem. If imperfections in your powder coat caused failures to return to battery, I suggest shortening your COAL slightly to give yourself more margin for that.

Plenty of us are thrilled about allowing .38 rifles. Count me as one of them. I never shot Wild Bunch and had no intention of buying a bigger rifle just to do it. Now it's become one of my favorite shooting sports. The rule of .40 or larger never made any sense and the power factor means nothing. If anyone took their ball and went home because .38s get to play, there will be plenty to replace them.

Hello Boggus, Those are some pretty strong words to describe the current state of Wild Bunch and those working hard to ensure its success (WB TG's, WBRO Instructors, the WBROC and SASS). After reading through this thread and seeing your statement that attendance number are dropping, I thought I would do some digging into the number of Sanctioned Wild Bunch matches across the world just for some perspective. I have reviewed the number of Sanctioned Wild Bunch matches across the US and Internationally from 2019-2026 and here is what I found; 2019 - 17 2020 - 19 2021 - 14 2022 - 16 2023 - 17 2024 - 16 2025 - 17 2026 - 27 From 2019 to 2024 the average number of Wild Bunch matches across the world was 16. And with 2024 being the year that the new changes were put into effect, rate of growth was not expected to double overnight or the next year. Folks needed to get their feet wet and test the waters before jumping head first. But as the number of matches in 2026 show, there are 11 more matches than in 2025. I think that says something in itself. But, let's just take it one step further since match attendance seems to be a common theme. More often than not, folks gauge their opinion from the number of competitors at larger matches like Land Run and END of TRAIL. With END of TRAIL being the World Championships and the pinnacle of our sport, please see the Wild Bunch attendance numbers below from 2019-2026; 2019 - 72 2020 - Cancelled due to COVID 2021 - 60 2022- 142 2023 - 154 2024 - 120 2025 - 141 2026 - 164 From the looks of it, I wouldn't say that attendance is down by any means. This years World Championships shows the highest number of Wild Bunch Competitors at END of TRAIL. All that said, negativity breeds negativity and if we want this sport to continue to grow as the numbers are showing, than coming to discussions like this one about power factor, with a kinder approach seems like a good path forward. I personally have really began to enjoy Wild Bunch and look forward to seeing it grow! I hope these numbers shed some perspective and I hope you all have a wonderful day! Best, Ruby Ruthless

Kinda sad, now that this idiocy has ensued, attendance numbers are dropping.

Neither are going to do anything to the steel at those velocities. Hundreds of thousands of jacketed 124 grain hollow points at 1400 are going into mild steel poppers and plates every weekend at IPSC, USPSA, and Steel Challenge matches throughout the world every weekend.

Well, he did start the thread. And it was interesting data.

Apples and oranges. Max fps is 1000 and 1400 for SASS. A 230 at 1000fps 28 times has more effect on the surface than a 200 at 1400 8 times. Basic metalurgy.

But now they got their Classic and we're still talking about it. Even 1/4" and especially 3/8" mild steel will take jacketed bullets at 1400 fps all day long, so that's a non issue. Armored steel will take at least double that depending on distance. I also disagree with you that the pistol is more damaging to steel, it isn't momentum that damages steel, it's velocity. I can blast my AR at AR500 with jacketed bullets at 3200 mv at 50 yards and it has and will take that for years without any major issues. I shot my 20 practical exactly one time at a piece of AR500 at 100 yards, muzzle velocity 3850, bullet weight 39 grains, aka, 150 pf. It left a 3/16" deep divot in the AR500 that's still there to this day. A 55 grain M193 bullet at 3200 is 176 pf. You can blast the steel at half that distance until your barrel is shot out and the only thing that'll happen is it'll chip the paint.

Chapo, I also 100% case check all of my reloads as well with different checkers (Armanov, Lyman, EGW, Bear Metal Design, etc). depending upon the caliber. As mentioned previously I ALSO chamber checked 100% of the rounds used in my testing. in the end, I believe that the combination of the bullet shape, imperfections in my PC finish, insufficient crimp and lack of proper lubrication of my Taurus PT1911 and my Ruger SR1911 being brand new and not fully broken in all were-contributing factors. my next range day will be dedicated to putting a bunch of OEM fMJ ammo through the Ruger to limber it up.

It's not a PF issue. The main reason SASS wanted an Open category, years ago, was to draw other, cowboy, shooters into WB. WB was not bringing in the revenue spent on awards etc. CAS shooters, who have now started shooting WB, didn't want to have to get a new rifle and shotgun. The cost of the guns for the amount of matches offered, didn't pencil out. So SASS had to change things up and, in so doing, eliminated the PF for all rifles to allow .38's to play. Add in the '87 and SxS shotgun, more shooters could afford to play WB. Enough WB shooters wanted the "big bore" rifles and pump shotgun, SASS decided to bring that back as "Classic". Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened. Rifle PF is only in Classic. As far as clubs using rifle PF as a reason to not shoot WB, I say BS. 150pf for pistol is more damaging to a target, because of 28+ rounds vs 7-10, it's just a reason they want to complain.

I can assure you, Norfleet will not see this.

I'm still trying to figure out how a failure to return to battery and a failure to feed are different things in this context. I suppose in this case, if the case still has bell in it because the crimp die hasn't knocked it out, it's both, since a round that doesn't fit in the chamber is never going to "feed." This is a good time to share with the forum that I chamber check all of my ammo, and for wild bunch, my current tool that I use for that is my barrel, taken out of the gun and sometimes in front of the TV. I figure any round that has been in the chamber before is likely to fit in it again.

I don't really understand why there is so much obsession with this issue. No shooter is going to be slower with a 150 pf rifle. It makes no difference. 150 pf is not a lot. No shooter is going to be faster with a .38 at 60 pf. In fact, most of them are probably shooting 100+ pf .38 anyway. If anything, we should be talking about raising the power factor for the pistol. 150pf in .45 Auto is very weak. Factory hardball is 195 pf. Major pf in IDPA and USPSA is 165 and 170 in IPSC outside of the Open division. It is much harder to shoot a pistol fast with one hand at 165+ pf than it is at 150, and much harder to shoot the pistol fast than any rifle at any power factor. If we were serious about power, we'd be mandating 180 or more, which isn't pushing .45 at all.

Now,now, boys!!!

No No NO. If they want to shoot under 150, for rifle, shoot wild bunch aka mild bunch aka wild bunch lite. But the range/club should understand 150pf for pistol stays. period.dot. It's not the Rifle PF that kept shooters away from WB, it's the cost of the equipment. Just about everyone has, or had, access to a single stack 1911. It was the shotgun and large caliber rifle that scared, potential, shooters away. Not the rifle PF. Now that there is WB for those who don't have, or want to get, the shotgun and rifle, and Classic for those who do. Again, Rifle PF has nothing to do with it.