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We had our state WB match Thursday and Friday 6-4 got done in time for people to shoot side matches seemed to work pretty well

Great match! Fun and challenging! Thanks to the whole Circle K gang who put on this match. It gets better every year!

Once again, a great and challenging match. Thanks Seth and all the Circle K folks who worked so hard to make this happen. MK

PM sent!

I put Boggus’ firing pins in. Both my M12’s. Also followed the instructions for removing the non essential parts. Both guns run perfectly. I did not put the new hammer springs in yet only because it appears to be a little more complex job than the FP’s. Boggus, if you have any tricks to ease that installation let me know. MK

Shooter choice is up to the shooter and the TO. The counters watch/listen for misses, and assist in watching for procedural errors. The TO is the one who determines if, or not, the shooters "choice" is in line with the scenario and rules. As the TO is the person closest to the shooter, and should be looking at the gun, is in the best position to tell whether the "choice" is legal or not. The minute spotters take their eyes off the targets, they loose the focus they should have regarding misses and potential procedural errors.

This whole thread is about the Shooter's Choice options, some of which involves watching for engaging a target.

There are no rules, that I know of, that involve watching "target engagement" only watching for proper strikes/misses. The only person who should, remotely, be watching the gun is the TO. Spotters should be watching the targets. And other than TO's and Spotters, no one has a say in P's or Misses.

I agree. Don Jorge

Overall Champions: Overall Men's Champion - Tyler Tornado Overall Ladies' Champion - Dueling Des Overall NY State Men's Champion - Sixgun Schwaby Overall NY State Ladies' - Outlaw Duelin’ Dawn NY State Resident Champions: NY State Men's Traditional - Montague Kid NY State Men's Senior Traditional - Dutch Cassidy NY State Men's Modern - Sixgun Schwaby NY State Ladies' Modern - Outlaw Duelin’ Dawn NY State Men's Senior Modern - The Bronx Bandit NY State Ladies’ Senior Modern – Headshot Hannah Category Winners: Men's Traditional - Montague Kid Men's Senior Traditional - Dead Head Ladies’ Senior Traditional – Knotty Lady Men's Modern - Tyler Tornado Ladies' Modern - Dueling Des Men's Senior Modern - The Bronx Bandit Ladies’ Senior Modern – Headshot Hannah

I would suggest discarding any rule which involves having to watch for "target engagement" with the 1911. Thus, we would not have to try to get into the shooter's head about "did he or didn't he" have the gun covering a target when a failure to chamber or fire occurs. Especially when considering only the TO is usually close enough to the gun's firing axis to even begin to guess about pointing at the target. Just: 1 - watch the shooter for safety violations, 2- count the misses, 3- watch for violations of any specific shooting order that instructions call for on the target array (to award any earned Procedural penalty), 4 - someone (preferably TO) watching the rounds-fired count (to award a P for too many rounds fired, or to let shooter know he is not yet finished with the required rounds-fired count). And to know what target(s) to direct the shooter to, when they need a "brain-restart" sometime through the string. That is about enough for any TO and Spotter crew to keep track of when the competitor is shooting 28 to 42 pistol rounds in a WB stage. good luck, GJ

The reason I asked the question was not to advocate for the application of “Shooters Choice” to the 1911. Since the semiauto pistol operates differently from “manually operated” firearms it is more difficult to determine whether a shooter has attempted to shoot a target (or more than one target). I would be fine with not applying that “doctrine” to the 1911. Since WB rules are being conformed to CAS rules it seems a given that Shooters Choice applies to WB rifle and perhaps to shotgun (still less of an issue since shotgun targets are usually “in any order”. The problem with Shooters Choice is inconsistent application. SASS chose not to put it in the Handbook so many shooters (including TOs) don’t know about it or understand it. Personally I would be OK if the rules were rewritten to consider a target “engaged” only when a round is fired. Or rewritten to incorporate the Shooters Choice “interpretation” more clearly. Either way we could do away with inconsistent calls.

I have not used their 45ACP, but from their 44-40, 44 Special and 45 Colt that I have used, I would have every confidence in their stuff.

I have used other calibers from Choice Ammo and been happy with the quality. That is a decent price on their 45 acp WB load. I am curious how well it works. Have you tried it? I JUST this weekend shot my first WB match in about 8 years. I forgot how much fun it is. Now I gotta plan for more shooting and traveling. 🙂 I have some Herters and Ultramax 45 acp lead ammmo to use up first but that should not take too long. I reload 11 calibers now and would just as soon not load another caliber and with the infrequency I would shoot WB I'd just buy factory ammo, if at all feasible.

I am officially retired from Wild Buch management BUT I can tell you for the first 10 years of real Wild Bunch this question of "Shooters Choice " never was even thought about or considered. If you had a failure to fire the 1911 for any reason, you just cleared the gun, put in another magazine and continued where you were. Everyone shooting would do as Eyesa asked. Fix the gun and proceed to avoid penalties and hopefully misses. Aparently those days are past. Very sad in my opinion.

I'd be in favor of eliminating that definition in the interest of competitive equity. What is "attempting"? That requires us to get into a shooter's head. Obviously there's a good argument if the hammer falls and the round doesn't fire, but the fact that we even have to debate it is too unclear. I'm also in favor of round count stages, especially for wild bunch. It'd be a whole lot easier to have high round counts and more shooting if it wasn't for sweeps.

That is a major difficulty for some shooters to understand. Review the definition of engagement of a target once more. And, no, engaging a target is not fully equivalent to firing a round down range intended for a target. The use of "engaging a target" is mostly to protect a shooter from a "target-sequence P" on specified-target-order scenarios (like sweeps) during situations where the round does not fire. I have never liked that the rules ever included having to watch for "engagement" of target just in case the shooter could not get the round to fire, and then protect the shooter from the P IF they skip trying to fire another round there. I am much more in favor of discarding "engagement" with just counting rounds fired and misses which occurred. good luck, GJ

I don't think that thinking about shooting a target is the same as shooting at a target, but I'm also not any level of RO in either SASS sport.

Big money to replace a barrel, especially if it shoots well as installed by RIA. Lots of labor, as even the drop-in barrels often are not as easy as the name makes it sound. And not a job for a first time 1911 surgeon, as some things require some special tooling and measurements. So, WHERE on the existing barrel are rub points or tight spots when you install the barrel or work the slide with gun empty? If replacing the barrel simply because of "rub marks" - that is not very wise. If you do not change dimensions where that barrel was fitted to the gun (the locking lugs, the under-lugs on the barrel, the chamber fit to the feed ramp, headspace, barrel hood fit to slide, or the last inch of the barrel where the barrel bushing rides, you can probably file and sand on your factory barrel to clean up cosmetic drag scars or slight rub marks. Maybe take a few pictures of the barrel (or a disappointing target at 10 yards) showing what you don't like right now. good luck, GJ (just GJ, or Joe, or you can spell it out, too. And MR? I keep thinking my Dad (a 1st Sgt in 82nd Airborne in three theaters in WW II) might be looking over my shoulder as I i write. ☺️)

3.9 grains of TightGroup was not building sufficient pressure to accomplish the proper burning of the powder. This caused erratic ignition and associated variations in velocity. With 4.0 grains the powder is generating enough pressure to ensure better ignition of the powder charge. Would be interesting to see the SD and ES of a 4.1 grains of TightGroup

I just signed up and did receive the confirming email. Looks like the process is working now. Cudo’s to the staff to make it happen. Thanks 🙏🏼

Howdy. I realize this post is rather old but I must ask- is the hat still available and do you happen to have a box for it? I am relatively new to Wild Bunch and do not have a proper hat. Many thanks 🙏🏼 Derringer

That's exactly where I'm at with my cowboy SG loads. Works like a charm! Ellie was having issues with a broken shoulder, so I came up with an ultra lite load for her and it has performed flawless as well. 11gr of Red Dot, CB0175 wad, & 3/4oz of #8. IIRC, They chronoed around 650. If she does her part, the targets fall and the fliers turn to dust!

General recommendation for making cowboy/WB shot loads, which are almost always loaded lighter than the minimum starting load normally published by Hodgdon or Alliant or VitaVouri, is to start with a 3/4 ounce wad and the powder weight from a 7/8 ounce load. Although there is a trend recently in conventional shotshell loading (trap, skeet, sporting clays) to load lighter payloads, they usually drop the shot weight to 3/4 ounce and add a little more powder to a published 7/8 or 1 ounce load and accept a higher velocity (like 1250 or 1300 FPS). That type of load does not make friends on the Cowboy range and has more recoil than you want when shooting fast. So, loads for Cowboy shells are almost never found in a published manual! They do not have a lot of "conventional" use. You have to either try stepping down powder a little at a time from what you do find published until you find a load that you like, or you get another pard who has a load built the same way who shares data with you. There's not a lot of SAFETY risk with decreasing powder weight in a load (and thus chamber pressure and velocity), but you do HAVE TO BE AWARE OF GOING SO LOW ON POWDER AS TO MAKE AN INCONSISTENT performing shell. The big danger - squibby shells that leave a wad stuck in the barrel which could bulge a barrel on the next shot, or even worse. You also have to be concerned that you have enough stack height (powder plus wad plus shot) that you can make a solid enough crimp to avoid shot leaking out! Next concern - TiteGroup is a fairly dense powder. The Clays or Red Dot you have been shooting are fluffy (low density) powders - only Trail Boss is significantly more fluffy. Using TG leads to lower stack heights and poor sunken crimps that don't "seal" the petals at the center. So, fixing that? Use a tall wad....the pink Winchester-clone wad CB0175 from ClayBuster is often chosen, as it is one of the "taller" wads in any maker's 12 gauge wad line. Second suggestion - load in one of the smaller volume hulls. Any of the Remington target type hulls (STS, Nitro27, Gun Club, American Clay and Field). Or, the new Federal High Overall hull (which is just a maroon colored STS hull). Or, a Winchester AA-HS hull. Don't run yourself through the ringer and try to load very light loads in the econo Federal Top Gun, or any of the European straight-wall hulls (Rio, Challenger, Nobel, Cheddite etc). Too much volume to have to fill to get the crimp to work well. Third (reluctant) suggestion - a little filler or an over-shot card or plastic disc over the shot. A Cheerio or similar cereal piece has been used by many light-load shooters. I avoid that, since I load on a progressive loader and don't like to slow down the process to stick something into hull after the shot drop. Fourth (even more reluctant) suggestion - trim hulls enough to make a good folded crimp, or even put a roll crimp on the light loads. I never would, ,though, and have never needed to. I find a light 7/8 ounce shot load in a Remington hull with a 7/8 ounce wad, with only enough powder to give me 1000 FPS, suits me just fine. Never have a knockdown fail to tip over, never have to worry with a flying clay bird, or a 20 yard KD target. Make a few slow 7/8 ounce loads - you may find you like them! The main "safety concern" that the powder makers who publish shotshell loads have is folks trying to load "too heavy" thinking that will kill more birds or varmints. So, they are quite concerned if you ask for anything outside of their pre-set range of chamber pressures that they consider best for conventional shooting (targets, upland game, rabbit and squirrel). But, they also want to be sure their published loads will cycle most of the semi-auto shotguns on the market. They get tired of answering mail (texts today I guess) saying - "Your starting load won't cycle my 3" chambered auto-go-boomer! They really don't worry too much about you modifying a recipe to go lighter, as long as you know how to stay away from squibby loads. If all you are willing to load is a published-minimum-load from Hodgdon, you are right, you won't find one light enough for pleasant Cowboy shooting. good luck, GJ

Mr. JG Thank you for your answer. I read your response over a few times last night and again this morning. Ran out time yesterday for responses. Will follow your advise VERY closely. Ordered a set of diamond drilling devices for the rotary last evening to finish off this portion of gun project. The place the bits were ordered from say 'Delivery on Friday'. We'll see. Now thinking it is time to replace the factory barrel. It rubs hard on many places. Its the only thing left to replace on this gun. Again - thank you Respectfully - J.J.