Scoring for BAMM

[J. Frank Norfleet]

BAMMsters,

I have been asked this question and I looked in the handbook and match directors book and couldn't find the answer written out (maybe I'm blind). My understanding is that BAMM is scored the most hits with the fastest time. 10 out of 10 hits beats 9 out of 10 even though the 9/10 has a faster time. We don't give 5 second penalties for misses. It is the most hits with the fastest time.

JFN

Edited June 24, 2023 by J. Frank Norfleet

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

We score  just like main  match time and misses and the reason is we are not just accuracy we also require speed. What we noticed scoring the other way was sand baggers would look down the score sheet and if no one was clean then they would take a long time ,throwing speed out  to win the match. 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Thank you,

So It has changed since I last paid attention. Is that codified anywhere in the rules?

JFN

[C.N. Double]

I've noticed it changes depending on where you go. It's not set in the rules AFAIK.

 Personally, I prefer Dusty's method. I like it to be fast and chaotic as I imagine many of the real battles were when these rifles were in service.

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

Mr. Double’ , exactly what we want to replicate! 
 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

This causes me to ponder. . .  

For a 10 round match, how fast can I shoot 10 rounds with a reload? 10 seconds with a 5 second reload? I bet faster. Then 50 seconds for 10 misses. That is 75 seconds scored time. Can I win a BAMM match and never hit the target? If I am pointing at the correct targets surely I will get some hits, they would be lagniappe. In the goal to hinder the "sandbaggers" have you created an open door for the "gamers?" I'll have to experiment with this.

Realism? If the research of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is correct, he found that that after WWII, the Army discovered many of the soldiers had fired lots of rounds at the enemy but that a small percentage had actually hit someone. i. e. there was a small number of soldiers who were actually hitting their targets. So I guess in that sense that fast and chaotic would be historically correct. I'd rather have fast and accurate.

As I said this has caused me to ponder . . . 

JFN

[Garrison Joe]

Ditto

I think with a rifle match shot for "minimum time with just penalties for misses" that the penalty for a miss should be larger than five seconds, as controlled aiming to hit a 100 yard target might take 3-4 seconds (where as aiming to engage a WB match target at 20 yards or less with either pistol or rifle might only need 1/2 second).   Penalty for each miss needs to be such it becomes impossible to "miss fast enough to win", as it is in main matches.   Something like 20 seconds or so.

good luck, GJ

Edited June 26, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[C.N. Double]

Well, in this video, the shooter hit 10 targets with 10 shots in 32 seconds, and the targets were about 2' squares at around 70yds. If a different shooter really wanted to waste 10 shots as fast as they could to try to game the system @ 5sec/miss, the shooter in this video would still beat them (by a lot).

Maybe there aren't rules governing the scoring of this side match because there don't need to be. I believe the match directors are fully capable of deciding how to score the match, and I'm confident most of the shooters won't care either way.

@J. Frank Norfleet -- do it however you prefer. When shooting a BAMM, no matter how it's scored, the shooter is guaranteed to be satisfied.
 

 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

CN Double that is some real fine shooting!

Here is the course of fire from the shooter who contacted me and prompted me to ask my original question. The targets were 20"x16" set at 65, 75 & 80; all very hittable. The kicker in the match was it was shot offhand in strong wind. He took the time and made 10 hits in 70+ seconds. The winner shot his 10 in 50 seconds with 4 misses and won by 10ths of a second.

His lesson (and mine too), is, "Know the scoring rules before stepping to the line." He was still operating under the old rules where the one with the most hits wins and time is the tie breaker between shooters with the same number of hits. He wasn't aware of the scoring change (and neither was I). "Is speed king," or "Is accuracy king?" If speed is king, it is better to take a 5 second miss than to take 6 seconds to get a hit. I hate it when people can miss fast enough to win.

In a match we get what we reward. in real life, I'll take accuracy over speed any day.

JFN

PS: I would rather that we go back to the old system of scoring with a time limit. For example: 60 seconds to shoot 10 rounds. Count the hits made in the 60 seconds, the most hits wins. Set the second beep on the timer to stop the shooter. The timer can separate any shot made close to the stop time. That will deal with Dusty's "Sandbaggers," CND's "fast and chaotic" and still make accuracy king.

Edited June 27, 2023 by J. Frank Norfleet
PS added

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

JFN, speed and accuracy have to balance but the scales always lean to accuracy. Folks have to have the pressure of the clock for speed and accuracy of the shot placement. If we had a shooter not trying to hit anything on going for broke to circumvent our match at the very least we would throw a couple of spirit of the game on him and a 10 yard penalty to boot! 🤠Anyone can set down off a bench and shoot a good group, that’s a fact. Getting into having to reposition the rifle thru movement, shooting around or thru barricade or offhand. Well now that adds a whole new level. One more thought if accuracy is above all then on a 10 shot course of fire 10 wins . All the other shooters  that shot 9 are out of the money right then when they dropped the one target. However scored as time and misses those 9 shooters still have a chance. Nobody actually knows who won until scores are tallied.  Now I do think for rifle games that aren’t focusing on a combat type match like a quigley type match with the big bores or long range lever accuracy should be king. When we thought of BAMM at its conception we wanted a match that showed the strengths of speed and accuracy as a combat style match using reloads on the clock with stripper clips.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

All a very good discussion with a lot of good points.

I would like to point out that our shotgun matches (Wobble Trap, Wild Bunch Clays and 5 Stand) are scored on hits alone, no time or penalties for misses involved. Your Jungle Run is a straight up timed match with makeups for misses (no weasel math).

I'm not to keen on designing a match or scoring system just so nobody knows who won until the scores are tallied.

I do like the idea of getting off the bench and moving in BAMM. That's why I think that TR and DB are such good ideas. Creates a whole new set of variables in course design (like the Jungle Run).

This whole discussion has caused me to want to experiment with the "Mad Minute" used by the British military for training bolt action shooters before WWII. While it morphed into numerous variations, it was originally 15 rounds in 60 seconds at a 4'x4' target at 300 yards. What if it was shot with a man size 24"x16" target at 100 yards, no bench, either standing, sitting or prone?

JFN

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

The mad minute gets long. A full minute sounds fast until you’re behind the gun ! We tried it one year in oklahoma  it was fun, entertaining, historical and the next year I think it changed to 30 seconds. It was a lot of shooting for some folks. Par time puts the pressure on to perform. Off the bench we allow shooters to go to their favored position. Shotgun games pretty much are all most hits. Trench sweep allows all makeups and is strictly time. Unless that guy that doesn’t have enough shells is shooting then he actually gets misses added in addition to time. 🤠 we are not trying to design a match so nobody knows won but if it takes 10 to win and one shooter does it ………I guess the way I think of it  accuracy and speed BOTH rule. A shooter that takes 2:00 minutes to shoot clean on a action combat stage that should take 25 seconds or a shooter that runs thru his rounds in 15 seconds but misses 8  is unimpressive on both accounts. Neither exhibited both speed and accuracy. TR and  DB   Are both great categories. They stand on their own but operate perfectly commingled into wild bunch stages. Thinking about those that’s two prime examples of scoring for total time right there. Folks are familiar with timing for main match already so it’s easy to hit the timer and count the misses. You should experiment with the mad minute and see what you think. It’s a good solid side match. Our answer to that was Texas 30   Featured 7 dancing dots,30 second par time ,1911 with plenty of mags at the beep sweep the targets only hits are counted most hits win. With a tie back the shooter up 5 yards.  What all side matches are y’all thinking about for your big New Mexico match? 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Wow, Dusty good stuff.

I haven't talked to them yet but I should know more after Saturday what the Chisum cowboys are planning.

JFN

[Sedalia Dave]

My personal experience has shown that increasing the penalty for a miss is an easy way to emphasize speed and accuracy.

I MD a monthly Cody Dixon match. As a group we like to emphasize speed and accuracy so we typically shoot the SASS rifle targets as our pistol targets. The CD rifle targets range in distance from 40 to 125 yards. As the yardage increases so does the target size.

To get more participation we decided to allow Handi Rifles without ejectors in the single shot category as a more affordable alternative to more traditional single shot rifles.

It soon became apparent that a decent shooter could outrun a miss or two because reloads with a Handi-Rifle are significantly faster than all other single shots.

I didn't want to go back to disallowing Handi Rifles so I proposed to the group that we increase the miss penalty from 5 to 10 seconds. Everyone agreed so the next match was scored with 10 second misses. It was immediately obvious that the playing field was back to more equal footing.

Everyone still has fun and to my knowledge the time increase has not resulted in anyone voting with their feet.