Loading shotgun for split target engagement

[Joe Cross]

The scene: 4 KDs on stage right, 2 KDs on stage left. Pistol and rifle on stage left. 

Start at stage right shotgun in hands. ATB shoot the 4 KDs, move to stage left and make shotgun safe on table.

Shoot pistol and rifle, then shoot last 2 KDs.

Per shotgun range ops in shooter's handbook, safe to leave the shooter's hands: Hammer down on empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)

If I've interpreted this correctly, the shotgun may be loaded with 6 rounds, shoot 4, leave action closed on expended round, move and make shotgun safe on table with 2 rounds still in magazine (staged for further use) OR, must only 4 be loaded for the initial engagement and the last 2 loaded off the body (or staged) when needed?

This stage will be used for a match this coming Saturday and I want to do it right.

Please advise and thanks for any help.

Joe Cross

[Garrison Joe]

You understand perfectly. 

About the only thing that is hard for some shooters to remember to do, when loading 6 initially, is to leave the action closed on round 4 as they complete the first shotgun string.  If they open the action, they have to shuck out the two remaining rounds, so the shotgun is safe to leave hands (totally empty), because they no longer can get to the other safe condition (action closed on fired round).  Some will forget and earn the SDQ for:

Quote

Restaging a long gun for further use with the hammer NOT fully down on an empty chamber or fired case and the action closed.

So, be ready to deal with explaining the "safe to restage for further use" call to a shooter or two.

good luck, GJ

Edited September 12, 2022 by Garrison Joe

[Garrison Joe]

And, while writing this, I think we have a difference between what the rules call for, and what is generally considered safe to do.

That would be, matches I have shot in have always considered it proper to restage a shotgun for further use if it is open and empty including magazine.  The rule quoted above ignores this condition, and by ignoring it, implies that restaging the shotgun open and empty of any rounds, should earn a SDQ as well.     This may be something that needs to be clarified in the next rules revision.

From a physical safety concern, there would be no possible danger from "restaging for further use" an open and empty shotgun.  In fact, the rules specifically REQUIRE initial staging of an open and empty shotgun if the stage instructions call for no-rounds-loaded in shotgun at the start of stage.

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Garrison Joe

[Flying W Ramrod]

31 minutes ago, Garrison Joe said:

And, while writing this, I think we have a difference between what the rules call for, and what is generally considered safe to do.

That would be, matches I have shot in have always considered it proper to restage a shotgun for further use if it is open and empty including magazine.  The rule quoted above ignores this condition, and by ignoring it, implies that restaging the shotgun open and empty of any rounds, should earn a SDQ as well.     This may be something that needs to be clarified in the next rules revision.

From a physical safety concern, there would be no possible danger from "restaging for further use" an open and empty shotgun.  In fact, the rules specifically REQUIRE initial staging of an open and empty shotgun if the stage instructions call for no-rounds-loaded in shotgun at the start of stage.

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Please note the entire rule: "Safe to leave the shooters hands.
– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"

This means you have two choices. First, you can leave it Open, with a round in the magazine or on the carrier but not in the chamber. or Closed with the hammer down on an empty chamber or expended round, for future use. Your choice.  Note it does not say "No Live round in chamber, magazine or on carrier.

[C.N. Double]

Consider limiting the initial shotgun staging to 4 rounds in the tube. This eliminates the potential for a live round falling into the chamber when they discard the open gun, and it forces your shooters to load 2 from the body or table, which is a good skill to practice.

[Joe Cross]

2 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Please note the entire rule: "Safe to leave the shooters hands.
– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"

This means you have two choices. First, you can leave it Open, with a round in the magazine or on the carrier but not in the chamber. or Closed with the hammer down on an empty chamber or expended round, for future use. Your choice.  Note it does not say "No Live round in chamber, magazine or on carrier.

Not ignoring the "live round in chamber" portion - it WILL be noted at the safety briefing.

Was not aware of being able to leave a round on the carrier and one in the mag when staging for further use. That will also be noted.

Thank you, JC

[Joe Cross]

11 minutes ago, C.N. Double said:

Consider limiting the initial shotgun staging to 4 rounds in the tube. This eliminates the potential for a live round falling into the chamber when they discard the open gun, and it forces your shooters to load 2 from the body or table, which is a good skill to practice.

I am leaning this way because I think too many eyes will glaze over after the safety briefing.

Thank you, JC

[Garrison Joe]

FWR - you are missing my point.  The rule that needs clarification and expanding is the "Safe for Restaging" Stage Disqualification rule on page 22 of the current manual.

It reads:

(SDQ is earned for the following conditions:)

Quote

Restaging a long gun for further use with the hammer NOT fully down on an empty chamber or fired case and the action closed.

THAT statement says a SDQ would be earned with a restaged-for-further-use shotgun being "Open, with a round in the magazine or on the carrier but not in the chamber" (since the action is not closed, and hammer is not down)

The rule in SDQ definitions list on page 22 needs to be expanded to include the "Action open, no round in chamber" situation.

The rule you pointed out is in the Shotgun Range Operations section, on page 13,  The two rules are "out of step" with each other.  One on page 13, other on page 22.

good luck, GJ

[Flying W Ramrod]

9 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

FWR - you are missing my point.  The rule that needs clarification and expanding is the "Safe for Restaging" Stage Disqualification rule on page 22 of the current manual.

It reads:

(SDQ is earned for the following conditions:)

THAT statement says a SDQ would be earned with a restaged-for-further-use shotgun being "Open, with a round in the magazine or on the carrier but not in the chamber" (since the action is not closed, and hammer is not down)

The rule in SDQ definitions list on page 22 needs to be expanded to include the "Action open, no round in chamber" situation.

The rule you pointed out is in the Shotgun Range Operations section, on page 13,  The two rules are "out of step" with each other.  One on page 13, other on page 22.

good luck, GJ

Good call. The ROC is looking for places like this so they can align the rules. Again, good call.

[Flying W Ramrod]

7 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Good call. The ROC is looking for places like this so they can align the rules. Again, good call.

Tried to edit this but can't.

That rule states "Restaging a long gun for further use with the hammer NOT fully down on an empty chamber or fired case and the action closed." Which means, to me, that if you restage a long gun, for further use, and the action is closed, it must be hammer down on empty chamber or expended round.

This does not pertain, nor excludes, the first part of the "Safe to Leave Hands" statement of "NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange."

So you are correct, the ROC needs to clarify this.

[Joe Cross]

My first WB forum post sure started something. Glad I could help!  😎

[Legendary Lawman]

Thanks for all the comments and thanks to FWR for bringing it to my attention.  The ROC will review this issue.