TheodoricFriede Posted August 4, 2022 Share Posted August 4, 2022 (edited) Hello, I purchased two of those Wild Bodie Tom Load 6 kits for a Winchester 97, and I can not, for the life of me understand why I'm still only able to load 5. Invariably, the 6th shell sticks out by about a half an inch. And its a hard STOP, not just a tight spring. I have a take-down model, and made sure I bought the take-down spring and follower. Hell, I even bought the second one to make sure the first one wasn't a mistake in some way. I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong. My magazine tube is 16-inches, which, as I understand, is the standard length. The tube is smooth and doesn't appear to have any dings in it. I'm getting desperate and more than a little frustrated, and figured that, if anyone could answer this question, the cowboy action community could. I would sincerely appreciate any help that could be offered. Additional information: As I lacked confidence in my abilities to do much more than miss a target, the first instillation was done by a 'gun-smith' who somehow, in the process, managed to scratch up the barrel and receiver, messed up a cartridge retention arm (which he 'fixed', but is now weak), and only managed to get the thing to hold 6 by moving the barrel band forward by a quarter of an inch, effectively breaking the take-down mechanism, and insuring that the threads of the magazine only half-way engaged when assembled... (I managed to fix that myself, as you get real brave when you just want the bad men to stop hurting your baby. It even clicked back into place as it to say this is where I was meant to be.) The second installation was done by me, because I figured I couldn't possibly do worse. At this point I may also try to fix the retention arm myself. Edited August 4, 2022 by TheodoricFriede Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, TheodoricFriede said: retention arm Correct name for this part is either the right or left cartridge stop. About your 6-shot kits. Did the kits include a new magazine follower? I've not installed one of the WBT kits, but some of those kits have a follower that has a shorter "skirt" on them than the original follower was. Going into a solid stop with 1/2 inch left to get the 6 rounds in kinda hints that the problem is with the follower, not with the shorter spring. Try pushing the follower all the way through the mag tube, with the end cap and mag spring totally out. If follower hangs up, look for a dent in the mag tube, which can be raised by a shotgun smith with a "dent raiser" tool. If that seems good, then try 6 rounds in the mag tube and just follower setting on top of those. Maybe get a picture of how far the follower goes up toward the forward end, and if you can get all 6 rounds into the tube that way. You need to FIND the problem area before you can really FIX the problem. good luck, GJ Edited August 5, 2022 by Garrison Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheodoricFriede Posted August 5, 2022 Author Share Posted August 5, 2022 18 minutes ago, Garrison Joe said: I've not installed one of the WBT kits, but some of those kits have a follower that has a shorter "skirt" on them than the original follower was. Going into a solid stop with 1/2 inch left to get the 6 rounds in kinda hints that the problem is with the follower, not with the shorter spring. [...] Maybe get a picture of how far the follower goes up toward the forward end, and if you can get all 6 rounds into the tube that way. You need to FIND the problem area before you can really FIX the problem. OK, that appears to indeed be the problem. Even with no spring, I can not load the full 6, and the cartridge hangs out just as much as before. Which begs the question of, now what? There isn't enough skirt on the new follower to cut down even if I wanted to in order to make room. The Solid Frame version of the kit has a shorter follower, but I don't really know if I should risk using the wrong part? Like I said... I'll take whatever advice I can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 Short follower would work fine in your takedown, if the skirt is short enough. BUT - Sounds more like there is a dent or flat in the top end of the mag tube. TAKE A PIC of where the follower stops, from the top end. Pull your follower out and see if you can get a pic down the tube at the spot where the widest diameter of the follower sticks. Post 'em. Common to have the mag tube holding clamp have been over-tightened or torqued and have the thin wall of the mag tube dented just enough to hold up the follower. Either YOU have to use your sensing abilities (eyes, feel) or a shotgun gunsmith needs to use his or perhaps a barrel caliper to find the trouble with your mag tube. My advice would be find another gunsmith who knows what he is doing and won't damage your gun. Tell us your location and you will probably get an answer with contact info of a local gunsmith that folks trust. good luck, GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSnake Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 What ammo are you using? What is the overall length of the shell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheodoricFriede Posted August 6, 2022 Author Share Posted August 6, 2022 6 hours ago, Garrison Joe said: Short follower would work fine in your takedown, if the skirt is short enough. BUT - Sounds more like there is a dent or flat in the top end of the mag tube. TAKE A PIC of where the follower stops, from the top end. Pull your follower out and see if you can get a pic down the tube at the spot where the widest diameter of the follower sticks. Post 'em. Common to have the mag tube holding clamp have been over-tightened or torqued and have the thin wall of the mag tube dented just enough to hold up the follower. Either YOU have to use your sensing abilities (eyes, feel) or a shotgun gunsmith needs to use his or perhaps a barrel caliper to find the trouble with your mag tube. My advice would be find another gunsmith who knows what he is doing and won't damage your gun. Tell us your location and you will probably get an answer with contact info of a local gunsmith that folks trust. good luck, GJ The issue with the short follower is that it wouldn't be flush with the end of the magazine tube. Wouldn't that cause issues with feeding? Plus, if anything, has a longer skirt. So I'm not sure that would solve the issue. After all, the whole purpose of the skirt is to keep the follower in, right? It's going to stop in the exact same place. Would the shorter follower buy me more space than I lose from the skirt? I'm not unwilling to try, but at this point I'm getting dinged pretty hard on the back and forth shipping. $10 to send me the second follower, and It'll be another $10 to send it back, another $10 to get the new one, and ANOTHER $10 to send that one back if it doesn't work.) (I suppose its also possible that some of the skirt could be ground off, but I'd still be concerned about things feeding properly.) The follower slides in and out of the magazine smoothly, and with absolutely no resistance. I can shake that thing like a martini and it slide freely from one end of the tube to the other. The tube really doesn't appear to be dented in any way. I tried to get a good picture, but I just cant get anything that has the follower, or lack thereof, visible. I really really doubt its getting caught on anything. Anyway... I'm in Southeast Houston if anyone has any good gunsmith recommendations. I sincerely do appreciate the help and advice so far. 5 hours ago, KingSnake said: What ammo are you using? What is the overall length of the shell? Zuber 2 3/4'' buckshot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) Wild Bunch shooting never uses buckshot. But, a properly fitted mag tube / spring / follower should be able to handle well made buck shells too. You seem either VERY confused on how the follower works, or you haven't written clearly. Or maybe it's too early for my mind to wrap around your statements that first the follower won't go far enough forward in the mag tube, then your next statement that the follower pushes all the way through. Cannot be both. The skirt of the follower faces forward (toward muzzle end). The mag spring fits into the skirt. Rounds loaded in the tube have their tip against the follower face. So, what limits the capacity of the mag tube is either the follower skirt is too long (jams against the mag end cap out near the muzzle) or the spring won't compress enough because it's very strong coiling, or because it has compressed to a solid stack of coils. Or the mag tube is too tight at some spot. Thus, either taking coils off a strong spring or metal off the skirt length often results in enough room in the 97 mag tube for the 6th round to fit. Briley Shotguns in Houston is a VERY good shop and can usually fix any shotgun. They will be rather pricey, and they don't see many Cowboy shooters in their shop. https://www.brileygunsmithing.com/ 1230 Lumpkin, Houston, Texas 77043 . Steve's Gunz in Lampasas TX is very good and he knows more about shotguns that most pards. Even if shotguns are not a big part of his Cowboy guns specialties. http://www.stevesgunz.com/ Lampasas, TX 76550 512-564-1015 good luck, GJ Edited August 6, 2022 by Garrison Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheodoricFriede Posted August 6, 2022 Author Share Posted August 6, 2022 9 hours ago, Garrison Joe said: Wild Bunch shooting never uses buckshot. But, a properly fitted mag tube / spring / follower should be able to handle well made buck shells too. You seem either VERY confused on how the follower works, or you haven't written clearly. Or maybe it's too early for my mind to wrap around your statements that first the follower won't go far enough forward in the mag tube, then your next statement that the follower pushes all the way through. Cannot be both. The skirt of the follower faces forward (toward muzzle end). The mag spring fits into the skirt. Rounds loaded in the tube have their tip against the follower face. So, what limits the capacity of the mag tube is either the follower skirt is too long (jams against the mag end cap out near the muzzle) or the spring won't compress enough because it's very strong coiling, or because it has compressed to a solid stack of coils. Or the mag tube is too tight at some spot. Thus, either taking coils off a strong spring or metal off the skirt length often results in enough room in the 97 mag tube for the 6th round to fit. Honestly, Sir, I have never done cowboy action shooting. (Though I would love to try it if I could ever get enough practice in to not embarrass myself completely) It just seemed to me that The Cowboy Action Community was the best place to ask my question. I want the 97 to hold 6, not for competition, but because it is a delight to shoot, and one of my favorite guns in my collection. I want it to be the best shotgun it can be, because I enjoy shooting it so much. Regarding the follower, I understand how it works. What I'm saying is that whether or not the follower is shorter, the ledge in the magazine tube that the skirt catches on is going to be in the same place. That ledge is what keeps the follower in the gun. Further, the follower for a solid frame model is shorter because it doesn't need to take into account extra length of the magazine that screws into the receiver. So said follower would never reach the end (or maybe its more accurate to say the front?) of the magazine tube. There will always be some space between the follower and receiver. I don't know if that would effect the guns ability to feed shells. To summarize: If the Solid Frame Load 6 Kit works just as well as, why bother making the Takedown version at all? There has to be something that keeps it from working as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheodoricFriede Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 AAAAARRRGGGGGG IT HOLDS SIX. IT WAS THE CONFOUNDED AMMUNITION!!! WHY DIDN'T I THINK TO TRY A DIFFERENT SET OF SHELLS?! Turns out the damned 2 3/4'' Zuber cartridges (which were all I had, as i just bought what i needed while at a shooting range) are actually 3/16ths of an inch longer than they should be... I cant decide if I feel like the biggest moron who ever lived, or... No, no that's it... Thank you to everyone who provided help. I'm going to take this time to go sulk. (At least I managed to fix the cartridge stop spring on my own.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltimoreed11754 Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 I did my own 6 shell conversions on my marlins and winchesters by trimming springs and shortening followers depending on what was bottoming out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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