Abe E.S. Corpus

In looking over the new rules for 2021 I focused on the definition of “loaded” as “any firearm with unfired rounds in the chamber”.  This is not new, glancing back over prior versions it looks like the definition changed in 2019.

 

Prior to 2019 the definition was the same as in CAS, namely, a firearm with a live round in the action, the chamber, or in the magazine.

 

What I had not focused on before is the difference in penalties for a dropped gun, or for sweeping someone.  Obviously it’s a Stage DQ with an unloaded gun, Match DQ if loaded, but I had not considered how the definition affects the call.

 

For example, if a cowboy shooter bumps a staged rifle off of a table, it’s a MDQ because there are rounds in the magazine.  A Wild Bunch shooter gets a SDQ because the rifle is not “loaded” since it was staged with the chamber empty.

 

I don’t see many dropped firearms, but it does happen.  If it does, I want to make the correct calll.

We have a Wild Bunch side match coming up on April 8.  Any chance the 2021 Handbook will be released before then?

 

I’m doing an overview of Wild Bunch rules this Saturday.  It would be great to be able to at least give folks a heads up about possible rule changes that are coming.

From what I am seeing on the SASS Wire, there will be some WBAS shooters who did not get into the CAS match.  I think that weighs in favor of having the Wild Bunch side matches on Friday June 11 rather than the following week.

Would the WB side matches be open only to Wild Bunch shooters?

 

Assuming I am able to come up for Wild Bunch it would probably be more convenient to shoot the Wild Bunch gear on the first few days, then switch over to cowboy guns after Sunday.  I use the same rifle for both games but will feed it Frontier Cartridge ammo in the CAS warm up stages.

Thanks.  If it was discussed previously sorry to be plowing the same ground over again.

Version 14.5 of the Handbook has a bit of an inconsistency under “Pistol Range Operations”.

 

Under the fifth bullet point on page 7 provides the general rule:  “...the 1911 must be discarded with the chamber empty of a live round.  The slide may be forward or licked back.  It may have no magazine or an empty magazine”.

 

The “safe to leave the shooter’s hand” summary on Page 8 is consistent with that language. 

 

In between those provisions, however, is the second bullet point under “On the Firing Line”:  “If charged at the wrong time or location, the 1911 may be made safe by clearing it of live ammunition, including the loading magazine, and staging it with the slide locked open.”

 

Now, granted, I have not seen this “charged at the wrong time” situation and it could be the intent of the drafters that a staged pistol should be treated differently than a pistol discarded at the end of the pistol string.  If that is what is intended, then the “summary” should be revised.  If not, the bullet point on staging the pistol should be conformed.

 

I saw the comment that a new revision is coming for 2021 and thought someone could consider this comment.  Thanks.

If there is a BAMM match, or other Wild Bunch-related side matches at EOT, I suppose they would be held on Friday June 18 (same day as the WBAS warm-up match) and not on the CAS side match day (Tuesday June 22)?

With EOT coming East of the Mississippi I am hoping to attend my first EOT.  Thinking of coming early for Wild Bunch.

 

I’ve heard a lot about Wild Bunch at Winter Range.  What can one expect at EOT?  What are the usual round counts?

In my area four magazines are usually all that is needed, but it’s always good to have extras in case of a malfunction.

 

The rules now allow shooters to stage magazines and ammunition, so it’s not necessary to spend a bunch of money on magazine pouches, sliders, etc.

 

You can save money on the holster, since it need only retain the pistol until you draw it.  We never reholster on the clock.  A holster made for a single action revolver will usually serve pretty well.

 

You probably know that we load the shotgun magazine at the LT so you need not load shells from your body.  Occasionally you might see a stage with more than six shotgun targets but not often.  You can carry extra shotshells and rifle cartridges in case you toss one out, but again you can also stage them.

This was a very good match, but the weather forecast was poor which caused a number of registered shooters to cancel.  As it turned out there was a light rain that stopped after about one stage.

 

Scores are posted on www.carolinacowboys.us

That’s Greenville, South Carolina.

 

We are planning a match In July to warm up for the Carolinas Shootout.  Probably five stages, all SASS legal rifles allowed.

 

Watch this space; I will edit the post when I confirm the date.

 

Edit:  I was informed yesterday that the club has decided to suspend matches for the time being.

Cotton Gloves announced the rescheduled date on Facebook.

 

Link to my prior post:  https://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=2787.0

I’m not an organizer, just a participant, but the Gunpowder Creek Regulators in Lenoir, NC are hosting the Carolina Wild Bunch Shootout on Saturday April 25, 2020.

 

Six stages with lunch for $40.  Usually some good door prizes, too.

 

Gunpowder Creek hosted last year’s Shootout and it was a lot of fun.

 

The host club has suspended matches for the time being due to COVID-19 so the “Carolina Shootout” has been postponed.

 

I will try to re-post when a new date has been announced.

Another Facebook inquiry about the legality of a new Kimber that has, in addition to other features, lightening cuts in the slide.  As I understand the specs the barrel is not ported.

 

Since the cuts are not specifically listed in the Modern category’s approved features, does this make the pistol illegal?

 

I think the idea behind these cuts is to reduce the slide mass.  In that sense it is more than cosmetic so I’m thinking it is not a legal feature.

The rifle does not have to be chambered in .45 Colt.  Anything forty caliber or greater which includes .38-40, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum or .44-40.  Lots of choices.  Your Rossi 92 in .45 Colt would be fine.  Wild Bunch puts more emphasis on the pistol than the rifle.

 

When Wild Bunch rules were first written the only legal shotgun was the 1897 (that and the 93/97 replica that was never approved for CAS).  Later the Model 12 was added and it has proven very popular.  Good shootable Model 12s are often less expensive than original ‘97s.  That said, the ‘97 is still a good gun.  For me the ‘97 points more naturally than the Model 12.  Both are great shotguns.

I live in South Carolina which is, of course, the home of PSA.  A number of years ago they announced that they would begin selling their own 1911.  Some time later the complete pistols showed up for sale, in carbon and stainless. 

 

I never heard bad things about the pistol but eventually the frames and other showed up for sale on PSA’s website as closeouts.  A friend of mine built one and was satisfied with it.  I don’t think they have been available for years.

 

Today my daily email message from PSA arrives and the first item for sale is a PSA Generation 2 1911 frame for $99 (carbon steel, stripped).  It’s the first I have heard of a Gen 2.

 

Any WB shooters have experience with the Gen 1?  Heard anything about the new Gen 2?

No question that metal lined holsters are legal for cowboy shooting but the CAS rules don’t say that holsters must be made of leather or canvas.  For my part I’d consider a leather holster with an internal (not visible) liner of another material to be legal.

 

One of the Facebook comments was that a drop holster was not legal for Wild Bunch.  I disagree with that statement.

 

 

sooo say i load 8 in one of my kimber mags, fire the first 3, 4th round FTF, so i clear it and fire the remaining 4 rounds and still be legal???

 

No.  According to the interpretation of the rule set forth in this thread, the eighth round in the magazine is “illegally acquired”.  If you use it you earn a penalty.

There was a post in a Facebook group asking about the legality of an older holster apparently intended for IPSC “back in the day”.  I am always amazed at the willingness of uninformed people to provide advice.  Anyhow, there were a couple of features on this particular holster that are not specifically addressed in the Handbook:

 

1.  The holster had a metal liner (presumably sandwiched between layers of leather);

 

2.  The holster was a drop loop design (I would not have thought this was illegal) and the gunbelt was equipped with two metal hooks that attach to a belt worn higher.

 

We may never see this particular belt and holster at a match but lined holsters, mag pouches and belts are not uncommon so I’d like to know whether an internal liner runs afoul of the requirement that holsters and magazine pouches be made from canvas or leather.

 

The rule also says that holsters and mad pouches “must be of traditional or military design”.  I’m not sure exactly where the edges are, especially in regard to the modifier “traditional”.  If a WB holster is otherwise legal in regards material and coverage, I’ve not questioned it.

 

Thoughts?

Due to scheduling issues we will not offer Wild Bunch at the November match.  I am hoping we can put it together for December.  If so I will start a new thread.

 

 

 

The match was called off due to a poor weather forecast.  I failed to post an update here.

 

We may try again in November.  I will start a new thread when we have rescheduled the match.

I am waiting to see the stages.  We may have some rifle targets after all.  We will likely shoot five stages.

I asked this question in December but I must not have phrased it clearly.

 

I am not advocating for the right to load eight rounds but if it is the intent of the Committee that an eighth round cannot be used without penalty a revision or clarification is needed.

It is my understanding that as a result of the elimination of the rule that set a maximum number of rounds in a magazine that a shooter may load eight and use eight, even though pistol strings are patterned on multiples of seven. 

 

Assume the stage instructions call for a 14 round double tap sweep.  Under the 2018 rule, the shooter was limited to 7 rounds in a magazine.  Choices were to shoot seven, reload from slide lock and shoot seven, interrupting the double tap between rounds 7 and 8, or shoot six, perform a tactical reload and shoot eight.

 

I think the 2019 rules provide a third option:  load first magazine with eight rounds, shoot to slide lock, reload and shoot six.

 

Do I want to keep track of magazines loaded with different numbers of rounds?  Maybe not, but I think this would be legal under the 2019 SHB.

The Model 12 that I bought was a later model with the wide forend but I was able to find a used “corncob” forend and replace it.