CC Moonshine

Hello all, I hope all is well for all of you. Understand that the lawyers and legal advice from the insurance companies for all target manufacturers are going to "strongly recommended" a 10 yard or more distance. They are also taking into account, the wear vs. value of your purchase. More distance will make for lighter impact impressions, and the targets will "last longer" for increased perceived value. SASS does not mandate minimum or maximum distances, SASS recommends distances. Match Directors need to design a safe (first), fun and entertaining match for the members in order to get them to return. The hard part in this, is as with anything that is entertaining, or not a necessity to live, it's subjective to each person. Think of movies or TV shows, pick a movie and you can find a percent that loved it, a percent that thought it was good, a percent that thought it could be better, and a percent that hated it. Match Directors need to work with attempting to provide an event that no one hates and that the majority like or loves. We all love a challenge, but we also need to leave a range not feeling defeated. In 2006 when we started Paradise Pass, we had a MD that thought if he could have no clean shooters he was doing his job. He wanted the match to be a epic challenge and it lost it's appeal for most shooters. Number were tanking, and after a couple years, we made a change. Once we set the matches for roughly 20% clean shooters our attendance tripled ( sometimes as many as 75 monthly shooters). Absolute proof of concept, more people enjoyed the matches. Challenge of a match can come in many forms. Our concept (just one of many that work) is to provide one hard element per stage. Examples: Far targets Closer but small targets High round count Wide spread target sequence Hard sweep or sequence Heavy gun transition Lots of movement Just to name a few. We set our CAS targets from 3 to 9 yards and our rifle from 12 to 20. Our WB will use some of our CAS stages and focus on our rifle targets for pistol, but will also sweep the close targets sometimes with a mag (7 rds). for our State match we will add some longer distance targets to the lineup, and then pull them before the CAS match. Most of our steel here is brand new in the past few years and is 16 x 16 or 20 x 20 AR 550 steel. There will no doubt be a million opinions on all of this, and that's all great. It's like favor and toppings for ice cream, we all have our favorites. At the end of the day, I think we are all very blessed to have shooting sports, friends in the game, and the ability to go to matches and enjoy. I hope I didn't run of course to much. Thanks and everyone have a fantastic weekend, CC

Hi, For the record so everyone is aware of the numbers. WB historically had/ has less then .07% the number of shooters then CAS. It may be as low as (.04%). It is the belief that the changes will entice CAS shooters to easily jump over and try WB. It is working and has created an uptick that is notable and will be measurable next year for sure. Anyone can paint a good or bad picture in what was changed, but I know that SASS, The SASS Board, and many long standing SASS members have received great replies from hundreds of people on the new direction. It's now in the hands of the WB-TG's and WB-ROC to guide the future and that was exactly what Misty Moonshine wanted. Those that left, left on their own and in my opinion abandoned ship prematurely and had no interest in helping shape the future. Again, without changes, WB was not an option to continue, the participation rate was to low for the resources needed to keep it going. So it needed change or moved to a side match only event. Now, the TG's (the voice of the masses) can guide the WB program and make it the game the people want. If you want to be part of the solution then become a TG or at least talk at length with a WB-TG. BTW, EOT numbers in 2024 were down because several boycotted the event over the rule changes and we knew that would be the case. Land Run had low numbers because of two hurricanes in the southern states that caused a big number of cancellations the final 10 days. Cowboy numbers are still growing every month and SASS as a whole is doing well. We are very optimistic that WB will continue to grow over the next few years and settle into a sport that still resembles the original intent but has a flavor that current shooters want. We all want it to thrive. Thanks for reading and have a super weekend, CC Moonshine

Contact your TG, they can provide information from the minutes provided for the TG's from SASS. It is posted in the WB-TG forum for TG's.

Hi Doc, I know that more then one person has suggested that change. Be sure your WB-TG knows about your thoughts. Thanks, CC

Howdy Doc, It was a very good and productive TG meeting. I think roughly 18 TG's were there plus some on Zoom. Some of the WB-ROC were there. Lots of topics were covered and the conversations carried on for days after around the range. The match was ok, it was setup to attempt to make a point by making it super close and not the normal WB challenge. But most had a great time anyway and recognized what was being done. Numbers were in the 80's, but several WB and CAS shooters from the hurricane areas cancelled the week prior for both events. So the numbers attending both matches were relative to the situation. My posse had an outstanding time and I sure enjoyed myself. Thanks, CC Moonshine

Awesome ! That's great that you jumped into WB, thanks to the new rules, I'm glad you got to try WB with your 87 ! Now that you know you like it, yes a Model 12 would be perfect for WB. Definitely a good option once you find one. Boggus doesn't care much for me, but he has good gun parts. 😂 Good luck and welcome, CC Moonshine

Hi Dan, Welcome to the group. I've been in SASS for 20+ years and I can assure you of two things. 1. Most of the folks in SASS (CAS and WB) are absolutely awesome and amazing people. They can and will become some of your favorite & best friends and you will look forward to seeing them at matches as much or more then shooting the match itself. Friendships with these kind of folks is rare outside of SASS, but it's the like minded "cowboy way" that makes these people so special and are 99% of SASS as a whole. It's the "do anything" to help attitude, the joy of seeing other friends shoot well in the matches, the laughter, the inside jokes, the sharing of experiences, the evenings around the campfires, being true supporters of each other and SASS, and always offering an encouraging word. 2. A few folks in SASS (CAS and WB) won't fit into #1. As for WB and the changes of late. Adding all SASS legal Shotguns and .38 rifle have shown great promise for the future. It's still to early to tell with pure confidence but the conversations we are having and the wave of contact that SASS is receiving about WB is a great sign. The TG meeting at the Nationals last week was excellent and productive, with several conversations carrying over that evening and the following days. I personally had no less then 20 conversations that were very productive, calm, and constructive regarding WB. The new WB-ROC is on task and the new TG program is in full swing with over 50 TG's world wide now and several clubs preparing to launch WB in the spring of 2025. There are many excellent topics being discussed by the TGs' for rules related to 2025 voting and the sport will move in the direction that the people (clubs, through their TG's) will vote for. Misty Moonshine has always been of the goal to "let the voice of the members guide the future". This is exactly how the future will go, the members will guide the direction. While we would love for 100% of the SASS members to be happy with 100% of SASS and rules and WB and CAS. Reality is that some aren't going to be happy with some changes or lack of changes. All we can do, is offer it out to the TG's and let them be the voice of the members at large. The loudest and most negative in opinion will not get anywhere, simply because they are unwilling to accept change and that the majority will decide through their TG's now. So in closing, I have found the greatest experience in SASS is to surround yourself with the folks that are in the first description I offered (1.) and enjoy. Thanks and have an outstanding balance to your week, CC Moonshine

Hi Doc, Thanks for the insight. Something to suggest to any of these clubs is what us and several other clubs around are trying. We shoot CAS once a month at PPR then right after the CAS match we have lunch (from our on site vendor) then start a 3 or 4 stage WB match. It's been well received and is averaging a dozen plus. Next spring I think we will try a once a month stand alone WB match. Some clubs as a starter are offering WB s a side match prior to the CAS match as just a stage event like .22 combo. The general conversations I had at Landrun were very encouraging at the number of clubs trying to get it started in some fashion. Good luck and thanks, CC

Hi Brad, Great question, I can say that with a good deal of confidence that there have been a very nice increase in new WB shooters from all over because of .38. I talk with and text with a lot of shooters and reports from them are that they are seeing new WB shooters because they can use their CAS main match rifle and ammo. This is informal at this time since we don't have a full shooting season yet with this in place, but at first glance it is ahead of projections. Fingers crossed it continues. Thanks and have a fantastic week, CC

Oh ok maybe you are correct. This was at the Michigan CAS state Championship. I guess I assumed it was one in the same. Thanks, CC

Thanks for the info Bruce, Remember, the current rules allowing CAS long guns does not effect the way you play the game ! continue shooting your 45 rifle !!! Ethen Callahan just won the Michigan WB championship with 45 rifle and the next 3 guys behind him were shooting 38's. That's the best part of the latest rule changes is that you can still play the way you want. Take care and thanks, CC

Hi El Chapo, I'll say something to SASS regarding it. Thanks for the input. CC

Hi Boggus, In many cases folks have problems because their spam grabs their confirmation email and they don't see it. Other tech issues could be their firewalls. Very seldom is it a site problem because it would affect everyone if it was a site issue. In any case a phone call during business hours to the SASS HQ or an email to them will usually get it cleared up within a day or so. Keep in mind that some days the SASS HQ has phones ringing non-stop and folks may have to leave a message if the girls are all on other lines. They will get a call back if they leave a message. At some point, WB wanted their very own forum away from the CAS wire (Not to be connected to the SASS/CAS forum) and here we are, so yes it is an additional process to end up here and requires the added step of signing up here and jumping thru the registration hoops. As for the five year ago statement, I can't imagine who wouldn't want to spend time with you on the range and at a dinner. 😂 Plus I don't think any of the staff had .40 cal. or larger rifles at the time. 😋 Just poking fun, I actually enjoyed having you with our posse at EOT last year. Seriously, we actually enjoy WB and want it to grow, so the conspiracy that we have spent 2 years working on ways to grow WB just because we want it to fail needs to end. SASS has tons of projects, programs, and daily tasks to complete. This effort to grow WB is exactly that, we want it to succeed. Have a great rest of your week Boggus, CC

Hi everyone, I'm personally curios as to where you shoot WB ( local club, or long distance or only big events)? How far do you have to travel for a one day shoot or a state match or bigger? How many clubs are within a reasonable distance for you to drive for a one day shoot? (both CAS and WB) How many shoots per year you attend and how many would you realistically attend if you had more choices in your driving range ? Any other helpful information on clubs that do or don't offer WB (they can remain nameless, not looking for to much info. on a specific club). Thanks in advance and have a super weekend ! CC

Hi Harper, Reach out to Ruby Ruthless at the SASS HQ she can direct you in the right direction! Have a great day, CC

Hi Deacon, Thanks for the input. During the past 2 plus years of conversations, meetings, think-tanks, and general opinion gathering, other guns, categories, rules, and styles were talked about often. I personally (personally completely stressed here, lol) love the idea of more handgun choices for sure. I'm of the opinion that the more options presented to play will allow people to "bring what you already own" like grandpa's old "fill in the blank" from WW I . How that would all work (new categories, etc...) would all be TG and ROC business to sort and provide to SASS HQ for review. So there is absolutely opportunity here. Here's the beautiful part of all of this, we now have several dozen WB-TGs and more every week (some veteran WB and some are new WB) signing up, we have several new to WB clubs nation wide that are starting to offer WB in some format and with the announcement pending for release a new WBROC. We will see allot of conversations not to far in the future on dozens of topics with the TG's and in turn, they should be talking to their club members to see what they want! I encourage you to talk with club members, TG's, Veteran and new shooters, to start people thinking about options for all things Wild Bunch! If you are not a TG (I apologize for not knowing I don't have a current list of names), but think about becoming one and talk to your clubs in your area. If they don't have a WB program, they can reach out to Ruby Ruthless at SASS HQ for more information. As for ZOOT Shooting, I have some CAS friends that have done it and really had a great time. I've seen video's of it, but haven't had the chance to see it in person. But would like to go see it for sure ! Have a super balance of the week, CC

Hi Jim, Looking at the list I believe 9 or 10 of the ones shooting .38 this was their first year shooting WB. 3 or 4 had shot WB before. The rest that shot 45 were all veteran WB shooters.

I'm short on time this week, so I'll be brief. Please retain the FACT that WB was a failing venture (for 10-12 years) and it was only operating thanks to funds transferred from the CAS side to support it. Without changes it would have been disbanded. This isn't new news, it has been part of the countless conversations for 2 years. So because a single event would sell out at 175 still equated to the fact that there wasn't nearly enough people playing the game throughout the year. Also, not enough clubs offering WB even at the monthly level to build up participation for state and above matches to host a full field of shooters or even offer it at all. So a sell out at any EOT, National, or and other shoot prior still presented the fact that WB was not successful, no analysis (or base line) should be based on what wasn't working. 2024 EOT was like a new start up venture and had it's soft launch so it becomes the new baseline or zero. It was also clear that many of the WB veterans that were upset that changes were implemented, boycotted EOT. Which was expected, while disappointing the people don't want it to make strides to grow and have a strong future. All your ideas and suggestions can be taken to the TG's later this year and a conversation can take place. Open categories were offered as a topic on more then one occasion and was strongly rejected by the prior WBROC. I have no doubt that WB will see many more changes over the next few years (based on the TG's) some will be old ideas revived and some brand new. This will be great for WB (we hope). For those that are still upset about the changes, keep in mind that we didn't change the way any of you can play, you can still shoot your 150+ PF .45 loads. No change is permanent and all things can be adjusted in the future as voted on by the TG's. Just think about the future, get clubs active in WB, become a WBTG, be constructive in the process. We all want this to work. Got to go, have a good week, CC

Hello, My statement is that "rifle is the least considered in WB" is absolutely true and has been stated countless times in posts by many veteran WB shooters. No one is saying to do away with rifle, but no one that I've ever meant that is in WB says rifle is their favorite gun. It is always " I love shooting 1911 or I love shooting a stoked shotgun." I think we can all agree on that. There is also zero debate in the fact that adding "all SASS main match rifles and shotguns " has already increased the ranks of WB and is moving in the right direction needed. TR and DB are their own exception to the rule, since they are a category choice like CC is for CAS. (BTW, both categories got complete support by Misty and the SASS Board during talks last year). My purpose for this thread was to hopefully invoke conversation and thought on the gains made already by WB becoming more inviting as a option for CAS shooters to try it with minimal time and money invested to enter the sport. 38 without power factor has allowed this to happen. By (at this time) adding back in a PF we would only slow or stop the interested shooters from easily grabbing what they have and a 1911 and trying it. Down the road, if the clubs and TG's want a PF or a PF category, or a big bore category, or any other plan, then by all means, they can have those conversations. We are working hard with several shooters and clubs to help get WB growing even more and could really use the support of old and new WB shooters. Have a great weekend everyone, CC

Good morning, EOT 2024 can't be the barometer for the future of WB. I talk with several match directors and shooters all the time, that have seen a huge upswing in WB numbers from cross over CAS to WB shooters. Most are using 38 rifle and their standard CAS loads. Our club alone has over 50% of the shooters using 38 CAS loads and that never shoot WB prior to the rule change. We need to build the ranks of WB, using the path of least resistance for them to try it and transition. This does not have to be a "forever" rule nor does any rule, but shouldn't we let it run to bring in the folks we need, get on firm ground, then through the TG's and their clubs, review ? Just thoughts. Thanks, CC

Good day all, Just for consideration, keep in mind why the rifle power factor was dropped in the updated rules. WB needs people to try it and it has to be easy for them to try. Our #1 goal right now is growing WB. We really really have to grow it by a pretty good margin. By removing the power factor, people from CAS can just grab their standard CAS load and try it. Then if they enjoy it, they can easily continue without major time or equipment investment. It has already completed the checkmark as proof of concept and is growing. We can't hang up the progress right away by fine tuning things that detract the progress. I know, myself and at least 5 , maybe 10 people that don't have time to add loading 158 grain ammo on top over everything else we load or do. I would just stop AGAIN shooting WB and so would they. It's purely a time issue for most of us. Besides, We are talking about the least considered firearm with the least round count in the game. WHY are we thinking it needs to get harder right now to draw in new blood ? Please think about the growth for now, how to make it easier for people to get in the game and try it. That is the most important and pressing issue for WB. Everything else can come after..... Just something to think about, Have a fantastic week, CC Moonshine

I'd cut it! But I cut anything over 20 inches on all my 97's and M12's 😂 I have goose guns for geese +26, +28, + 30 but not for CAS or WB Please note * this is free advise so it's worth what you paid for it... Good luck, CC

Howdy, I'm a left hand shooter and shoot traditional for WB. I use my trigger finger on the release, but I understand she may not want to do that. In all other Semi Auto pistols I shoot, I double hand the firearm and use my right index finger or left trigger finger to hit the release. Just something to maybe give a try. Also, your club should have a WB TG picked out if they are shooting WB, ( if not, they need to and need to contact Ruby Ruthless at SASS to add them) so be sure to mention it to them. In the very near future, the new WB ROC and TG's will begin the conversations on rules and the future expansion of WB. Good luck, CC

Howdy all, Just hosted the first Indiana State Championship Wild Bunch match last weekend before the CAS State match. Super happy with the turnout, had 34 sign up, 29 completed the match! A survey prior to the match showed over 50 % were using 38 rifle. Everyone had a fantastic time and there seemed to be a good deal of excitement for Wild bunch throughout the weekend. I spoke to several folks getting WB going in their areas and matches they are working at starting. Congrats to Ethan Callahan on the overall win! He is awesome to watch and one heck of a good guy. Have a super week, CC Moonshine

Howdy All, SASS HQ is receiving names and club information for Wild Bunch TG's and I know they already have several dozen signed up. Get involved ! This is going to be the best way to revive Wild Bunch and help set the path forward. The future of this sport is now in the shooters hands and it can grow, manifest, and be enjoyed based on those that want to be involved. WB ROC is coming, Misty is doing her due diligence and moving forward at the proper pace. Simply put, be part of the solution for success if you want. More later, I got to get ready for the Wild Bunch match tomorrow, have a good day, CC Moonshine