CC Moonshine

Hi Artemus, It is in the TG's hands and it will have a vote in the fall, just like the process dictates. There are still many clubs attempting to get their programs fired up for 2025 (spring is just starting) they will need time to have some matches, add members, pick TG's, and ask questions. Plus the process is the process, nothing should be rushed. I predict an additional dozen or more TGs/ clubs will come on board by mid summer. I guess it is perspective regarding the reaction in the TG meetings, and I've been in a ton of them, but there are questions brought by some and discussion takes place regarding power factor but it far from a one sided issue, I think it's actually more of a minority that want it back for all categories. As for your matches in 2019 please provide the numbers, double digit growth is outstanding, but I also, don't understand how rule changes effected it in any way (nothing was taken away or prevented in the rules from what you could do during double digit growth). As far as the data, I'm not sure what more you are looking for but in a nutshell 2019- 2024 there were only 20-24 verified clubs shooting WB as matches ( not talking side match events). Now there are 55-65+ (I haven't checked the number in a few weeks) that are set up, with TG's and dates for matches, there are several states setting up their first WB sanctioned matches, clubs adding WB to their monthly CAS match before or after, and some going all in with a dedicated day for WB (such as ours starting in May), along with several clubs exploring options for their clubs. As for match sizes, don't grab at the fools gold in the numbers attending matches, I can guarantee that match attendance numbers have 90% to with the perceived value of the customer and 10% economic. If they or someone they know attended a match that was excellent then they will return and tell friends, if they perceived the match as not the value or level of entertainment they expected, they don't return. Landrun is sold out for CAS and has a record number signed up for WB ( last I heard was around 120) with 5 months to go. A match directors choice (at EOT or any match) to do or not do something is not a barometer but rather a pure preference. The data is clear, my testing to my satisfaction, the manufactures, and other shooting sports end with rifle all the way down to .22. Florida State a few weeks ago, I ran the timer a lot, in close quarter bays, some bays even shared stage areas (2 posses shooting side by side in one bay) and again I captured 100% of all shots fired for every single shooter I timed (roughly, I timed almost 2,000+/- shots that weekend and missed picking up ZERO shots), For almost 2 years (as a T.O. at every match, every training event, and practice days for customers at our store) I have made it a mission to time properly and test the theory, the rifle last issue is completely dead to me. There is no issue with RIFLE LAST. No reasonable or facts based argument can be made that say rifle can't be last, to much testing has been done in the industry, by many other sports, and by other SASS members and myself that debunk any notation that anything except improper operation of the timer (human error) is the only option. If you want PF because you want PF, just say so, it's not a crime, it's an opinion, but no more claims are valid at this point that it is unreliable to allow rifle last, improper operation of a timer is no different then a distracted spotter (replace them in their duty). A high PF is for some and not for others but forcing those that don't want it will drive attendance and participation the wrong direction. Our Gun Shop also manufactures ammunition, we offer a cowboy .38 load(110 grain) it tests around 100 PF, people love it, we sell a lot of it. We will not add another load or alter the load we currently make in .38. Our store sells reloading supplies, we carry lots of options and our # 1 seller is 9mm (115 grn) bullet, #2 is the 110 grn .38, #3 is 105 grn .38, we stopped stocking 158 grn .38, very few want it anymore. Just from our sales data you can see that shooters want a smooth easy shooting round and enjoy it. If a 150 PF is reinstated for all rifle, our club will end WB just like we did in 2012 because 85% of our shooters shoot a .38 and just use their CAS ammo. I can stay with confidence that we will slide right back to where we were prior. A huge number at EOT, Florida, and several other matches are seeing at least 3 to 1 for the use of .38 and I'm sure very few would come close to a 150 PF. Forcing CAS shooters to add an additional "new load" to their schedule just for rifle of reloading and supplies will absolutely kill WB. The logical answer if Power Factor is a push for some ( remember it's only for preference, not for rifle last, testing is complete on that topic) then add a category for big boom or high power factor. Easy as that. It accommodates everyone without infringing on anyone's fun. Have a great week, CC

Good Morning Marshal, I hope you are doing well. You are absolutely right, anyone can achieve 150 PF with a 158 grain bullet at 950 ft./sec. But from the research (completed by SASS, the Advisory Board, and other advisors) for over 2 years. The new prospective shooters for WB want to use their CAS rifle and ammo, this has been the largest needle mover for the increase in interest in WB. They have zero desire to have to add a new load, bullet or rifle to come try WB, and if they like WB there is still zero interest to add those items to keep playing. Undisputed fact: when WB added the .40 cal. rifle and 150 rifle PF to the program around 2011 or 2012, it killed WBs growth, stopped it cold in it's tracks. Our club and at least 6 others in the Midwest ended our WB programs because of that rule, and we had a really strong program starting out. Factory 158 Grain lead ammo is expensive and hard to find. From my Distributors ( just checked the 3 largest Distributors wholesale to my gun shop), 7 brands are currently in stock of 158 grain lead ammo, starting retail price for 50 rounds is $37.99 (.76 cents per shot). Also, 3 of the 7 brands currently in stock, I doubt would field test to a 150 PF It is self distractive for WB to be consider forcing 150 PF on rifle for no reason. It has already been debunked about "ending with rifle issue" and modern timers. Current club participation in WB is double+ since 38 rifle was added ( this is factored with the mass increase in the number of clubs adding WB up over 100%). The easy solution for those that want it, add a 150 PF rifle category, heck make it 170PF for pistol and rifle for that category (like classic cowboy in CAS) or whatever and those that want that bigger challenge get it there and those that want to run 38 CAS ammo can, it's a complete win win. We all want WB to thrive and we would love for more and more shooters from CAS, other disciplines, or first timers. But for this to happen it must be a build up effect. Create easy entry requirements to try WB. =Check Increase the number of clubs that offer WB so people can get to a match within a reasonable distance. = In-progress but working Lesson to the shooters and create topics that will continue to grow the sport. = In-progress Continue to grow and adjust the sport to continue to improve the experience for the shooters. Have a fantastic Easter everyone, CC

Good Afternoon, I agree that equipment (& ammo) shouldn't be made obsolete by rule. To that point is the reason we added equipment and didn't remove or restrict anything else. As for major or serious changes, SASS wants the members (TG's) to shape the major changes. All we did with our research was to nudge the sport of WB in a direction that appears appropriate for the times. Now it can travel it's natural path through the TG system. I don't disagree with you about the love of 1911's and other shooting sports. . SASS continues to market to all shooters of any sport. Misty has several advertising deals with national open distribution, We will be setting up next week at the NRA Convention in Atlanta, Ruby Ruthless and a team of SASS members just did the huge Pennsylvania Great American Outdoor show with the SASS booth, we will be doing the Red Dead Redemption event in Tombstone later this year also. So SASS is still marketing in several directions but the WB focus approach is for CAS members to easily transition to try WB, by larger participation by CAS members in WB it also becomes more attractive to outsiders when there are more people involved. So in closing, I agree with you on many topics, and SASS is working hard every day to draw in new members to both WB and CAS. Have a great Easter weekend, CC

Hi El Chapo, I fully realize that on here (the WB wire) there is several comments and dislike of the 38 rifles and other changes made. But in the whole world view from the hundreds (possibly thousands) of members jumping into the sport of WB from CAS it was the right call (100%). We ( during the 2 + years of research and discussion) ever wanted to dismiss anyone's opinion, but it was crystal clear it could not continue like it was. My opinion, is that WB can stay true to its roots, and still gain in popularity. Targets not at CAS distance but not at old WB distance either. .38 rifles, shouldn't matter and let people shoot what they bring within the rules. It is not a viable option to market or pull from other shooting sports in any great number, (this has been studied and researched to death). WB will survive and thrive based on CAS shooters coming over to WB as an extension of the sport of SASS as a whole. Many of the WB bigger matches are run in conjunction with the timing of other CAS matches such as state and above sanctioned CAS matches. Take Indiana State for example ( our match) we are offering a 10 stage WB match Thursday and Friday before the CAS match Saturday and Sunday in June. The applications are looking great, and 80% of the WB apps are also shooting the CAS match. I'm betting 95% of them will be using 38 rifle and their standard CAS ammo. This is the winning formula. As for PF, a 1911 will run down to 142 PF pretty reliably, so the 150 makes sense. Again, if someone wants to run 170 PF run it. If a local club wants to offer a category of PF above 180 they can. But the masses want 150 PF for the 1911. My wife (Misty Moonshine and I) shoot a 162* PF 230 grain. 9mm would be cool to offer some day maybe but we run into a velocity issue vs. PF so that will be a TG and WB-ROC issue to sort if needed. Also .38 would struggle to go to the 150 PF so that option would decrease participation ( already studied at length). Please keep in mind that the wheels of progress must move slow enough to rationalize and realize all possible outcomes and pitfalls. So none of the changes will be overnight but will come in the proper time through the TG's, ROC, and SASS. Thanks for your support and have a great evening, CC

Wow Boggus,,,,,,,,, I go slow and throw some misses every match so I don't win,,,😂😂 But I love shooting so stop suggesting things or questions like that ! 😂😁 Misty does too!!! CC

Hi El Chapo, Thanks for the detailed post and a belated welcome to SASS and we are always excited to have experienced folks join the family. Your best path to use your experience is work with your local clubs and the TG's or become a TG once the opportunity is available. You are spot on regarding young folks in the sport, we see it all the time. They come in with parents or grandparents into the sport as teenagers or younger, love the sport, then become adults with massive responsibilities and are starting families and careers so they have no spare time for any shooting sports. But once life calms and money isn't so tight, we see several return in their late 30's or 40's. There is no formula to be able to keep them in any sport during that becoming a responsible adult phase other then reminding them we are here when they want to come back. All other marketing efforts underway with SASS is producing results as evidence of the new members each month which is outpacing the number going inactive or not renewing. As for future changes to Wild Bunch, that is now in the hands of the TGs'. But I can say that for 10+ years WB attempted to pull shooters from other disciplines and it proved unfruitful in spit of their best efforts. That is why a two year revamp took place with hundreds of hours of study, research, and conversations. The re-launch is what we have today as the starting benchmark. It has proven very successful in this relaunch with tripling the SASS clubs now offering WB and the questions and feedback we receive all the time is 99% positive. There are several topics already in the TG's hands for 2025 and I'm sure more will be added for the votes in October. As for increasing the power factor, that was studied hard and there is some variations of options in the TG's hands currently. Raising it above 150 isn't really an option, that would cause a mass exit of new WB shooters from the CAS side. A large part of the current uptick in WB participation is the ability for SASS CAS shooters to grab their CAS guns and ammo and a 1911 and do WB. But any shooter is welcome to increase their own PF if they find it more fun as long as velocity doesn't exceed max. but there is zero reason to force others o increase to an uncomfortable level. Have a great balance to your week, CC

Of course. The data maintained is formed on new members, active members, and inactive.

Contact your TG's for WB, it's now in their hands for the direction of the sport. Give them ideas and topics. Thanks, CC

Good morning, Just some clarity on this once again. SASS membership is GAINING every month! Vs. the number retiring or not renewing. SASS sees a net gain of over 200 new members per month. Just thought I would help dispel false rumors. Have a great week, CC

Hi Ethan, We sure hope we can fit this into the schedule. No promises but we will see as it gets closer. CC

Sure wish we could make it. But we will be setting up the SASS wax match in Tombstone Az. for the Red Dead Redemption event. Good luck !

Howdy all, I don't disagree with the concept that larger matches have to be something extra special. As a match director, range owner, and shooter for 20+ years. I might offer this train of thought. As the match moves up the scale (state, Territorial, region, national, world) I believe the attendance (number of competition ) starts setting the bar for how hard the match is. Meaning small errors, a miss, P, bad mag change, malfunction or jacked round can cost you several places at a big match, where at a small match maybe one or two spots or not at all. So that in it's self increases the challenge. Next, yes I think the targets can be out there but not more then a yard or two farther then normal placement. I say this because we shoot matches throughout the year and are all showing up to use our skill on what we have been doing, in an attempt to "best" a big field of competitors. This shouldn't be " the one that wins is the one that adapts the best to survive ". WBAS is an entertainment sport as is CAS, as is NCOWS, as is zoot, ect..... It's an entertainment sport because no one makes a living doing it. In fact we all pay money to do it, use our days off, practice ( some do 😂) and we don't win money or have to level up to get to the world championship. We sign up. If we want to increase the competition and self induce the adrenaline of competition then push yourself outside your comfort zone on the stage, try and pull off a 12 second stage. But remember, a match is not judged on attendance the first year, it's judged by those that return the next year. In 2005-2010 We had a CAS match Director that absolutely believed that the best match was one that was almost imposable to clean, and sweeps that provided several "P's" in a match. In 2010 I made a change and we brought things around and tried to average 18-30% clean, main stream sweeps, but maybe heavier movement or gun transition were added. Our attendance within 6 months went from 20 per month avg. to 45 avg. Our state shoot went from 103 the last year under the old guard, to 180+ just 2 years later. People enjoyed it more, plan and simple. We keep our matches at Paradise Pass, very entertaining, challenging, but extremely reasonable for the average shooter to at least not feel defeated at the end. Remember the same people win, no matter the difficulty of the match, and that's ok, because they worked for it to be prepared and practiced. We as match directors should never approach a match with a wish or will to put all those outside of first place in feeling they didn't enjoy the event. Have a fantastic evening, CC Moonshine

Santa got one for Misty for Christmas, She loves it! It was pretty great right out of the box, a little slick up here and there and it was perfect. We do a lot of 1911 tune ups in our gun shop and it took me about a 1/3 of the time to work this one over since it was so good from the box.

Hi Dave, Just wanted to point out that SASS is the parent company for both Cowboy and Wild Bunch action shooting. So all CAS and WB matches are SASS matches. That being said, please understand that as time goes on with Wild Bunch and the number of new clubs and shooters keep increasing, things will probably find a comfortable shift to a center of old school and new school. But in any case it is now in the TG's hands to gear it in a direction. My two cents worth are that things are moving in a great direction for the sports longevity, both in CAS and WB.

Howdy all, Misty and I both shot the match and enjoyed it for what it was. Target distances were fine but I found some of the stage movement odd in choice combined with odd target sequences on some stages. But I think the vast majority of the SDQ's occurred with 170 violations. Ben Avery SC doesn't present many options for downrange movement so the lateral movement with the firearms leaves a high degree of SDQ's during that movement with firearms in hand. Not to splash fuel on the flame but I ran the timer a great deal for both WB and CAS at EOT and rifle last would have been zero issue picking up for all the shooters I ran. All in all I feel EOT-WB was more of a success then in the past with a great number of new to WB shooters. It was also very encouraging talking with so many folks that have WB firing up in their home areas for the first time. I felt the WB-TG meeting was productive and we had great participation. Have a great week everyone, CC