Flash

I don't have a problem with how the winners are determined it is mainly that when you look at scores you get nothing! You just as soon have a list of the place holders with nothing else listed. 1st place, 2nd place, etc.

 

You can't tell how many misses any of the shooters had or times, NOTHING! I shot in EOT Wild Bunch and placed in the top ten a few years ago. I saved the scores, ha ha why did I do that! You can't tell anything from them. I know I started out the match with a stage that I had a P and a minor safety but there is no way to tell what stage that was or how I managed to get it together enough to place in the top 10.

 

We had a match today and I was so busy I did not have time to pay attention to my scores or how many misses I had and I placed 4th. I got the scores and they tell me nothing.

 

Am I the only one that thinks this could be done better?

OK thanks!

I think if you check with who ever is the final work for WB you will be wrong about that. They don't let you carry a pistol or rifle round in a shotgun loop, why would they let you put a shot shell in a mag loop (He is not asking about carrying it is a pouch/bag he is wanting to carry it in a mag loop)?

 

I believe in the first and third reply, those with the final word on WBAS rules answered the question. Happy Jack, I think we found a few more rules we can write out of the handbook next year.

OK, so you are on the rules committee. I am just trying to get this straight that this rule - • Loose ammunition (i.e., ammunition not in magazines) required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be safely staged. Rifle and pistol ammunition may not be carried in a shot shell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice. - allows you to carry a shot shell in your mag loop and if you are shooting and you stage it you can then use it and it is not Illegal Ammunition?

I am asking because I am a Territorial Govenor and I need to be able to explain this to my club.

According to that rule a shotshell may be carried in a mag pouch. It only says you cannot carrie rifle or pistol ammo in a shotshell loop.

kR

I think if you check with who ever is the final work for WB you will be wrong about that. They don't let you carry a pistol or rifle round in a shotgun loop, why would they let you put a shot shell in a mag loop (He is not asking about carrying it is a pouch/bag he is wanting to carry it in a mag loop)?

Okay, I guess this begs another question I've wondered about (both CAS and WB).  Can a round or shotshell for a reload that is carried illegally (such as the shotshell in mag pouch example) be pulled out of the mag pouch on the clock, then set down on a prop, then picked back up and used?  Or is there some verbiage I might have missed that says you MUST stage anything that is staged, BEFORE the buzzer goes off?

This is the rule:

• Use of “illegally acquired” ammunition. (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the

shooter in an approved manner)

• Loose ammunition (i.e., ammunition not in magazines) required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be safely staged. Rifle and pistol ammunition may not be carried in a shot shell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

So if you carry it to the line in an unapproved manner it is "illegally acquired" ammunition. If you stage it before the buzzer you can probably get away with it.

Okay, I guess this begs another question I've wondered about (both CAS and WB).  Can a round or shotshell for a reload that is carried illegally (such as the shotshell in mag pouch example) be pulled out of the mag pouch on the clock, then set down on a prop, then picked back up and used?  Or is there some verbiage I might have missed that says you MUST stage anything that is staged, BEFORE the buzzer goes off?

This is the rule:

• Use of “illegally acquired” ammunition. (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the

shooter in an approved manner)

• Loose ammunition (i.e., ammunition not in magazines) required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be safely staged. Rifle and pistol ammunition may not be carried in a shot shell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

Thanks for your responses.

 

Let's say the "round count" for the rifle for a stage is listed as 10.  The instructions indicate using the rifle first with a 7 round nevada sweep on four targets.  use 1911 and shotgun at different positions, then shoot the rifle again, triple tapping one designated target.

Unless otherwise indicated by the stage description, could one load ten, shoot seven and safely stage the rifle with three rounds left in the mag for use later?

Could also apply to a shotgun loaded with six, using four initially, then leaving two rounds for the last two targets of the stage.

Shotgun

RANGE OPERATIONS

•Shotgun magazines may be loaded with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence. Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. Any rounds loaded beyond the required number that are fired are treated as “illegally acquired ammunition.”

• Loaded shotguns must be staged with the muzzle downrange, the action closed, the chamber empty, and the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. (Failure to comply, SDQ)

• Unloaded shotguns shall be staged with the action open.

• The shotgun magazine will be loaded after closing the action and lowering the

hammer on an empty chamber. (Failure to load, NO CALL; closing action after

loading, SDQ unless corrected before leaving shooter’s hands.)

• Safe conditions of shotgun during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

– Action open, round on carrier.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.

Must be checked cleared at the unloading table. (Not following Loading and

Unloading procedures, SDQ)

 

Thanks for your responses.

 

Let's say the "round count" for the rifle for a stage is listed as 10.  The instructions indicate using the rifle first with a 7 round nevada sweep on four targets.  use 1911 and shotgun at different positions, then shoot the rifle again, triple tapping one designated target.

Unless otherwise indicated by the stage description, could one load ten, shoot seven and safely stage the rifle with three rounds left in the mag for use later?

Could also apply to a shotgun loaded with six, using four initially, then leaving two rounds for the last two targets of the stage.

RANGE OPERATIONS

•Rifles should be loaded with the number of rounds required by the initial target sequence at the loading table with the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down on an empty chamber. Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. Any rounds loaded beyond the required number that are fired are treated as “illegally acquired ammunition.”

•Rifles are always staged muzzle down range with the action closed, the chamber empty, and hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. If vertically staged, the muzzle must be tilted down range.

Safe conditions of rifle during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

• Safe for movement rifle in hand only

– Hammer down on empty chamber or expended round, action closed.

– Action open, round on carrier.

Rifles must be checked cleared at the unloading table. (Not following Loading and

Unloading procedures, SDQ)

Great gun for the money!

Well...actually, no you didn't state why the rule is there.

 

Your answer fails by all logical analysis. You didn't answer the question.

 

Of course it's a cold range.  We don't start cold.  We start at the ready.  Why isn't cocked and locked allowed as a ready condition?

 

I don't know, I only ask the question.

 

Want to take another crack at it?  :)

I answered the question. It is the rule as of today. Tomorrow it may not be the rule but today it is. I cannot tell you why it IS the rule because I was not part of the group that made the rules. If you don't like the rule, don't play the game or work to change the rule.

 

So What?

 

Just telling you why, if you don't like it work to get the rule changed, if you don't want to do that don't play the game.  ;D

 

SASS runs what is called a COLD range where no gun has a chambered round until the shooter is under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. That is why coming to the firing line Cocked and Locked is not permitted.

Ejector is fine. Very tight in place and straight as can be.

 

My SA GI actually has the ejector pinned, not glued like other SA's do.

I have two Springfield 1911 MIL-SPEC .45ACPs that I shoot traditional Wild Bunch with. One's ejector likes to come loose so I thought I would mention it. I only notice if I pull up on it and it will move. The other has not had that issue. So I guess that is not it!  ;)

 

Update on the problem.

 

I went to the range last week with the same Springfield GI and put around 200 more rounds through the gun. Same thing happened at about the same round count as at the match where I first encountered the problem. Locked up. Totally locked up in the same position.

 

Disassembled the gun and found nothing overtly wrong. Cleaned it, this time LUBED the PI$$ out of it, and took it back to the range today.

 

Same mags, same ammo. Ran trouble free. About 200 more rounds. Perhaps I simply did not have enough oil on the gun? I'm going to not clean it and run more ammo through it later this week just to see what happens.

 

I always oil my 1911s but maybe this one just needs a lot more oil?

Hmmm.

Is the ejector loose?

In my two Springfield M1A 1911s all I had to do is change the slide spring so I guess it depends on what brand and model pistol you have.

Well... it happened again.

 

Took the 1911 to the range and shot around 200 rounds trouble free but for a mag issue or two (another topic) and the gun jammed up solid as a rock again.

Did it jam open, closed, halfway?

Hi Gang. I have been checked at 250 PF from the rifle. It can get real cold up north. ;D

Just above 150 is what you need, is that a typo?

I would say it was a sliver of lead that got in the works since you were able to force it. Just my opinion.

One major factor that set the WB initial pistol condition (condition 3) is:

 

SASS matches (WB or Cowboy) are run under their concept of maintaining a Cold Range except when shooter is explicitly allowed by command (in our case, a beep) to start firing.

 

Carrying fully loaded, cocked & locked (condition 1) would not qualify the range as cold (until shooter is started on his run).  Because the 1911 being in loaded status (by SASS definition) at the loading table and during the walk to the firing line would mean the range is no longer a "cold range."

 

For the condition numbers, see: https://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

Thank you for this information. You don't hear this talked about in the shooter handbook or RO manuals unless I missed it. Good information!

Look, I am just giving my opinion on why the rules are the way they are for Wild Bunch. I would love to shoot cocked and locked too. Would be fun unless someone shoots themselves in the foot like has happened many times including Texas Rangers.

I carry cocked and locked. But I would not want to see someone get shot in the foot at a WB meet because they are not trained like I am. I know many instances where LEO's have shot themselves because they took the safety off before clearing the holster and they are trained so...

I would think the reason is that people have shot themselves by taking the safety off too soon when drawing the 1911 and why take a chance for that to happen? If a round is not chambered until you have the gun pointed down range there is lass a chance for someone getting shot by accident.

I have a couple of Springfields that are great same deal with the white dots on the sights.

We pick after each shooter.

Hi Folks,

 

I'd like to know how many of you would like to make Total Time the official WBAS Scoring at EOT. 

Allie

 

PS I vote for Total Time scoring.

I would like to have a scoring system that you can tell the total time and what was missed or P'ed or safety violation. So I guess I would like Total time with details.