Flash

Just put black finger nail polish over the white dots and you are good to go.

It is now OK to  do a tactical reload.

Also, is there a way to post without filling out all the questions at the bottom everytime??

It goes away after a few posts. I don't remember how many, sorry.

 

Most WB shooters are looking to reduce recoil so that is probably the reason.

Link to video:

That is a good start but not enough to get me back. We do our own thing now, done with trying to fix things where people aren't wanting to fix.

 

Maybe one day when you look at the scores you will be able to tell if your score was entered correctly. Would be real easy just have time, misses, Ps, and safety violations on the final score sheet. We do it here locally (don't care what SASS does) should be done at all shoots. Just an opinion that now one will care about. Carry on!

STAGE CONVENTIONS

Stage Conventions, or standard range behaviors, are a list of practices every shooter is expected to know and follow on every stage. These stage conventions should be followed in all Wild BunchTM Action Shooting matches unless otherwise directed in stage descriptions.

1. Knockdown targets that do not fall may not be re-engaged. No missed target may be re-engaged.

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or pistol) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

 

 

I think the only thing you have to do is black out the white dots on the sights and you will be good.

Let me also say that I get maybe 2-4 out of 1000 that don't drop in the case gauge. I am thinking they may have been shot in a Glock or something. But if they go in my case gauge they work in my Springfields.

I would try crimping just a wee tiny bit more.

 

The current set up with the Lee die is giving more crimp, it's also resizing the top 1/4" of the case.

I had some ammo not going in all the way and thought it was not sizing the bottom of the case and come to find out I was not crimping enough. Once I crimped the right amount the ammo just dropped right in. Not saying that this is absolutely your problem just suggesting something real simple to try. It may be that simple, it was for me.

I would try crimping just a wee tiny bit more.

You can load and shoot 8 round mags with a flat bottom but you can only put 7 cartridges in them. ;D

 

That was my understanding but where in the SHB does it state that?  I searched the document and found nothing.

It is in the pistol requirements starting on page 4.

I've fixed all my Chinese 97s simply by cutting the magazine spring so that it's uncompressed length is about 3 inches longer than the magazine tube.  Haven't had to swap followers or use any of the 6-shell kits. If you want to cut a spring that is not the factory provided one, get a mag spring for a Remington 870 in 12 gauge.  Pretty cheap item.

 

Good luck, GJ

That is the way I did it also. I have cut one follower for a little extra. Found instructions on the internet somewhere, don't remember where sorry.

What exactly is the point you’re trying to get across? Like I said, you started out attacking the scoring method.

You should read my first post where I said I don't have a problem with the "Method" I have a problem with the info the final report gives.

 

But really I can give my shooters a real score sheet until I don't have a device ACES runs on anymore. And I am really done. Really.

 

 

 

Here is an example of what I was hoping we could have in the future. I can see now that won't happen.

As to the scoring methods, if you want to see penalties go to the match director and ask. Usually, it is very simple for them to print that for you or email it to you.

And here we see one reason that this sport isn't growing. A simple thing that would let shooters see more about how the shooters perform in a match and are unwilling to do it. We had some new shooters at out last WB match. They don't see how what they did reflected on the score sheet. But again this is just my opinion.

Why did you hide the scores from them? If they want to see how they did, show them!

What exactly are you trying to get to here? One post, you’re complaining about the scoring system. In another, it’s match directors not show the minutiae of shooter’s performance. Then, you say your the match director not showing shoote’s scores.

And for most of us, it’s not all about winning or who won but the is a competition. Someone is going to be first and someone will be last. Of course, we could go like Cowboy is going. A category for everyone and a participation trophy for everyone who shows up. In that case, we may as well throw out the timer and the shooting and just give out the trophies at registration.

I really think that at this point I would be wasting my time trying to get a point across that may help recruit new WB shooter so what I am getting here is the upcoming scoring systems (Practiscore) will just show numbers that mean nothing to the new shooters and that the powers that be are stuck in their way and will not change something that would be so simple to do. I am done Thank you!

You know if I were not the guy that runs the shoots at my club I wouldn't even be bothering to call attention to this. I can deal with a score sheet that just says who won. That is all most people want to know right?

 

Trying to get new Wild Bunch shooters in our matches is hard enough but add in the fact that the new guys that are thinking about shooting see a score sheet that looks like a tax return just seem stupid to me. Just my opinion again.

As to the scoring methods, if you want to see penalties go to the match director and ask. Usually, it is very simple for them to print that for you or email it to you.

And here we see one reason that this sport isn't growing. A simple thing that would let shooters see more about how the shooters perform in a match and are unwilling to do it. We had some new shooters at out last WB match. They don't see how what they did reflected on the score sheet. But again this is just my opinion.

I know it can be done. Here is another example. This was a match my club had in 2014, can you tell any difference?

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

That is a big 10-4

Here is an example of a side match in 2014. What does this tell you other than who was first or second?

What do you think a perspective new Wild Bunch shooter thinks when he sees this score sheet. Do you think it makes him think he wants to join in or does he say what the F is this?

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

That is a big 10-4

Here is an example of a side match in 2014. What does this tell you other than who was first or second?

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

That is a big 10-4

Well I agree with Flash, if I am understanding what he is saying.  Whether for CAS or WBAS, some of the clubs I shoot with list scores with just the times and places, no info for misses or P's.  Other clubs have multiple files to pick from - one will be overall times and places only and another says "detail" and gives just that.  I even like it when the file shows rank points, even if the club does not use them for scoring.  Makes it easier to compare how I did on each stage to others.

Yes exactly what I am getting at!  :)

Only thing is it looks like you guys used total time?

The regular way Wild Bunch is scored all you would have is a bunch of % values.

I love the scoring for Wildbunch. I feel it is the most fair and the best for competitors. You must understand the scoring system to understand why it makes so much sense, that's why every other major shooting sport uses it. (combat style) Problem is a lot of competitors won't take the time or sip enough bourbon to figure it out and they get pissy over it, that is not the fault of the scoring, its the persons.  Now I totally understand the LAYOUT of the scores after the match, which is what im guessing this question is about. It Doesn't show penalties or misses ect. but neither does cowboy or any other sport. As long as we can get TIME with the percentages, I think people would be happier.

Your first part of your reply missed the point all together as the first thing I said was "I don't have a problem with how the winners are determined" and why I think it sucks is you have a score sheet that shows something like 2nd and this by it 229.8639 76.621 % Wow! That sure tells me a lot about the match. Now the last part of your post you are catching on to what I am talking about. My point is if you want people to be interested in something you need to give information. That is all.

 

Sorry I left out that CAS does show stage times, misses, and procedurals if you select that to be shown on the detailed score sheet in ACES. Now that ACES is gone Practiscore is going backward in my opinion and lumps all penalties into one column.

 

I think shooters like to see this information when they look at the scores. Just my opinion.

Flash,

Not even in Total Time do you get that information. If you look at the final scores for Cowboy at WR and EoT, all that's given is stage time after penalties are included. So I don't know why you are so critical of our scoring system.

 

But, if you need that information to analyze here is how you get it. Every major match I attend (state, regional, WR & EoT) posts the raw times at the end of the match for shooters to dispute. Every shooters time, misses and penalties are listed by stage without any placings. Take a picture of it for your records. Then when the final score is posted you will know how it came about. At our local matches we use PractiScore on my phone. I send out the final score to all the shooters and if a shooter wants the raw times I'll send it to them. So ask the scorekeeper of your local club to send you the raw times. I bet the information is available even if your club is using Aces or the SASS scoring.

JFN

Thanks for the suggestions. I know how Aces and Practiscore work, I do scoring for our club often. Aces gives you a detail report if you select that. Pratiscore does not separate the penalties it just lumps them into one which I don't like.

 

And you are right about EOT and WR and that is why I have no interest in looking at those scores. They tell you nothing but at least they give stage times in CAS where WB does not.

 

My point is that the scores of a match would be much more interesting to shooters if they could look at them and kinda see how the shooters did. Like this guy shot this stage real fast but he had two misses or this guy shot this stage real slow and the rest real fast and he did not have any penalties, I wonder if he had a gun malfunction? Putting up 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and so on with no other information is not that interesting to look at. That is my point and why I think our WB scoring system sucks! Cowboy action scoring you can look at the scores and tell what went on with the shooters and to me that is interesting to look at and analyze. Still my opinion.

Flash

You are wanting the scoring system to do for you what only you can do. Even if the scoring system told you your misses, it wouldn't tell you why you missed. Part of the shooting cycle is seeing where your sights are when your gun goes off and calling the shot. And by calling the shot I don't mean hearing the ding or seeing the hit on the target, I mean seeing where the sights are when the pistol fires and goes into recoil. I've been working on this a long time. The last WR I had 4 misses and the day after the match I could "see" the sight picture on all four misses. Even now I can see three of those; a front sight floated over the top of the target, firing before the sight was on target and nothing because I blinked and pushed out at 8 o'clock. When I saw each one I immediately corrected for the next shot.

 

Wrong. I want the scoring system to give me information and a record about what gave me the score I got. For example what my time was and what my penalties were. Also what the other shooters had. And I don't need it to tell me why I missed. I know why I missed. I want it to be a record that I can look at and see what happened in that match. Not some percentage of something that tells me nothing!

 

 

No such thing as being too busy to know how I was shooting. As a posse marshal at WR I was busy. But when I stepped to the line I gave the stage all my attention. And when I went to the unload table I could tell you everything about how I shot the stage. Anytime I let myself be distracted I shoot crappy and usually get a P, MS or a DQ.

 

Wrong again, my last match we were racing a weather front coming in and the wind was blowing the carpets we stage our guns on all over. I made a point to shoot first so I could go chase down things that were happening so we could continue the match and possibly beat the rain headed our way. I was not hearing the scores because I was not really interested at the time. I could have chased down the score keeper later I guess to find out but at the moment I was doing something else that I thought was more important.

 

I do like the scoring system, it makes the sport much more competitive than total time. Stage Points keeps a top shooter in the game even when they get a stage DQ. I can't tell you how many matches I have seen good shooters win even though they had a stage DQ. That means that they shot well enough on 11 stages to beat shooters that had scores on 12 stages. Total time knocks the shooter with a DQ out. Which means the next guy wins by default, not because he shot better. I don't want to win like that.

 

Another missed point I was trying to make. If you read my original post the first thing I say is, "I don't have a problem with how the winners are determined" all I want is a record of what actually happened on the stage so one can look back and actually see something that has meaning. Like a stage time, the penalties that were assessed, etc. This would also be nice to double check scores for accuracy. I think we can do better than what we are doing now. That is my opinion.