Bore Cleaners

[Grouchy Spike]

All of us have labored to clean bores of the old military bolts (and maybe some cowboy bores too) and are frustrated at what seems to be never-ending and incomplete efforts.

 

Check this thread which includes some discussion about cleaning bores with Patch-Out, the successor to Wipe-Out. 

 

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?572521-Kroil-does-it-remove-more-than-rust

 

Have any of you shooters tried this product?

 

http://www.eabco.com/WipePatchout.htm

 

Here's a testimony on ChuckHawes.com

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/wipe-out.htm

 

My assortment of gun powder is exceeded only by my assortment of cleaning supplies, the use of which has been reduced to Ed's Red, Rem Oil, Kroil, JB Bore Cleaner, and MC#7.

 

Share your experiences!

 

 

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

:) GS, I'm with you, I've got all kinds of cleaners etc. but mainly just use a few. I'm going to try patch out. Chuck's sold on it. Several times I've bought rifles that were so heavily cruded up that I thought the bores were bad and bought them as project guns only to find out after great effort that there was a great gun in that mess. I don't know what foreign countries used as we used cosmoline but I think it was something different also the fact some were dipped a very long time ago and then redipped later on maybe repeatedly perhaps even with different products it's no wonder that it's sometimes so difficult to remove. Dealing with bores I've cleaned and cleaned shot them and cleaned some more and got them in good shape but a clean white patch eludes me on a military rifle. The answer? Look down the bore and if it looks clean and well defined-- let the good times roll! With the bullets I use in bamm I get no leading just residue. Matter of fact I get no leading in my garand either. My WB guns these days stay so clean in the bores that I could shoot a lot of rounds and not clean them but I always field strip, run a few patches ,Lucas oil and back together. Do you have any leading issues or any problems in particular? Dusty Boddams

[Grouchy Spike]

A M96 Swede bore doesn't clean up as do other old bolts. A patch moistened with MC#7 Copper Remover indicates that copper fouling has been removed, so what remains appears to be powder/lead/cosmoline or other protectants.  Use of Kroil, Ed's Red, JB Bore paste, and Hoppes #9, have not produced a clean bore, even after overnight soaking and exhaustive efforts with a brush and patches moistened with  bore cleaner, and then dry patched.  A clean patch run through the bore moistened with Kroil or Ed's Red will have gray/black residue.  This is  long after JB was run through it so the residue shouldn't be metal removed by the JB, but that's not been confirmed with use of a magnet on the patch.

 

The M96 bore becomes notably dirty after ten rounds, using 13.5 gr Alliant 2400. I estimate that at least 500 rounds of cast have been fired through this bore in BAMM.  Occasionally the M96 won't group very well after cleaning (after several fouling shots), perhaps being affected by bore condition from loosened crud that hasn't been completely removed.

 

Another BAMmer reports similar experience with a M96 bore that won't clean up.  :o 03A3s and K31s don't exhibit the problem.

 

After reading the article on Patch Out, I'm tempted to try it too but wanted some feedback from those who have used it, hoping to avoid another sit-on-the-shelf product in the pursuit of the 'holy grail' of cleaners.

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

GS, just a thought,have you ran any jacketed rounds thru it? Maybe clean the bore as much as is easy and practical then run about 20 rounds or so of jacketed and clean it again. Remember think low hanging fruit! No reason to wear out yourself or your bore if it's shooting like wanted. I agree with you also that it could be something about the 96. Could be something to do with the twist,bore condition, rifling etc. really a lot of different things. one other thought is it as dirty with a different powder? If you have some 4759 laying around that could be tried for 10 rounds and see what happens. What's the velocity with the 2400/13.5 load?

[Garrison Joe]

An Outers Foul Out III electronic "deplating" cleaner might be your next step.  It normally has the ability to pull out bore fouling that brushing type cleaning just can't touch.  Oops, it's been discontinued for lack of profitability.  Too bad, it was a good rig, but expensive.

 

Or a few rounds of fire-lapping rounds (Cast Boolits has articles on how that is done by embedding fine grit in lead slugs and firing them) to smooth the bore up and make cleaning easier. 

 

Does a bore scope show you a rough groove surface compared to say an 03A3 barrel?

 

My M96 seems fairly easily cleaned, but I don't have your round count experience yet.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Grouchy Spike]

DB, no jacketed rounds have been put through the bore.  I have that in my plan, was looking at 140g non-boat tailed jacketed bullets to load, and then put some time on the range to see how they group.  13.5 gr of 2400 pushes a 150 gr Purcella cast bullet to 1525 fps.  Coated bullets would likely be a bit faster.  I didn't chrono them, but wasn't impressed with their performance compared to non-coated bullets as the group opened up but there might have been another cause independent of the coating.  Judge Hangin Knott wasn't having any tighter groups, so either it's not the shooter or it's both shooters having problems.  Which is possible!

 

GJ, I hadn't considered fire-lapping, am barely acquainted with it, but I'll study up on that.  I don't have a bore scope.  The bore when 'clean' is not so bright as a 03A3 barrel.  It's not dark, has some shine. 

 

I'll visit all ideas - use the fancy bore cleaner; shoot some jacketed bullets; change powder to Red Dot, 4064, Trail Boss; and fire-lap. I'm a winter temperature wuss (<55F), so the solution could be a month or two so away. 

[Garrison Joe]

The M96 is capable of some mighty fine groups with cast bullets, at least mine and a couple of other guns here in town can do it.  I find 5744, Reloader 7,  4227, and old 4759 are some of my best powders.  2 MOA groups that will hold out to 250 yards at least are usually possible. 

 

A heavy bullet 150-160 grains, at no more than 1600 FPS, seated out to the lands works in my gun.

 

Good luck with it!

[Grouchy Spike]

GJ, The M96 had been doing well with 2400 and Purcellas 150 gr. One inch groups at 50 m, two inches at 100m.  Granddaughter finished 3rd in one BAM match using the M96 on 16" plates out to 125 yds after having fired that rifle six times before the match.  She and the rifle were well matched.  Then something went awry.  The only change was used of coated bullets with same powder.  Now that I remember the history of the use of  2400, I opened a new container somewhere along the way.  However, subsequent use of uncoated bullets has not reduced the group size.  This might be a powder weight/velocity  problem and not a bore cleanliness problem.  Or a combination of both.

 

As I read and think about comments from you and DB and analyze the problem, I must start over with load development and the chrono.

 

I have some RL7, I"ll also try it with Purcellas 150 gr both coated and uncoated.  The Lyman CBH lists a starting load of 18.0 gr with a 150 gr cast bullet at 1619 fps.  I'd expect that a coated bullet would have a slightly higher velocity.  I'm thinking of laddering the loads in 0.5 gr increments beginning with 16.5 gr of RL7 up to 18.0 gr.

 

How much RL7 are you using?  Coated bullets?

 

In the meantime, I'll try some Patch Out then check the loads I already have for velocity and group size.

 

Thanks for the info.

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

GS, this is going to sound odd.......when I started shooting the hi tec coated Purcella bullet it was instant success. Couple of other gentleman started shooting it and didn't get near the groups until they shot several rounds and for lack of a better explanation seasoned the bore so to speak. You might just run a box thru it and see what happens or switch powder and do the same. One other idea if the action screws are not tight the gun won't group.

[Garrison Joe]

I NEVER shoot coated slugs, but especially not in BAM.  The pards shooting mil rifle cast bullet matches do NOT shoot coated slugs.  I figure they shoot 100x the rounds I do.  So, I still use tried-and-true White Label Carnuba Red lube on 16 Brinell hardness slugs, gas checked.    In 6.5, Rx7 runs about 17.0 to 17.5 to get a 150 grainer to 1600 FPS.  I kinda find I load to the chrono, and often get the sweet spot with a powder between 1550 and 1650 FPS.

 

I think adding coated bullets would drive me completely over the end of combination-madness.  I've only got time for simple.

And no equipment for powder coatings.

 

 

 

 

[Grouchy Spike]

DB and GJ, thanks again for the responses.  I start with the minimum load, check group size, and chrono.  I'll shoot all the way to the maximum load that I chose for development (the top of my ladder, not the manufacturers max load) and Chrono.  Then I'll choose the best group size and chrono that one. 

 

Good weather is here this week, so I'll clean the bore, load uncoated and coated bullets in the same powder load and check group size, clean the bore after each bullet/powder type.

 

I'll try RL7 too.