Clearing Long Guns-possible change?

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

We all know that the WBAS Shooters Handbook mandates that the TO clear the pistol at the position on the line where it was discarded or in the shooter’s hands.  Rifle and shotgun are cleared at the ULT as in CAS (part of me really wants to stop making and reading references to CAS but since SASS is the sanctioning organization for both sports…).

Because we tend to have fewer shooters in Wild Bunch, and of those we tie up two or more picking up brass, we often end up clearing the long guns “on the line” as well, avoiding the need for an Unloading Table Officer.  I’ve heard it said that SASS has resisted changing the Handbook to conform to this practice. Of course, I heard the same comments early on about five rounds in the 1911 magazine and tactical reloads, so I have hope that additional rule changes are possible.  Condition One starting position one day?

As it stands now, if “sanctioned” matches require the shooter to clear long guns at the ULT while monthly (I wish) or quarterly local matches do not, we have to be very careful that we are not training ourselves into SDQs when we walk from the stage to our carts one day.  At some matches we have cleared all guns on the line but required (encouraged?) shooters to stop at the ULT on their way out.  Like tagging a base.  I tried to stop there for a few seconds just to set the habit in my mind.

I saw LL’s comment that some possible rule changes would be discussed at EOT.  If this is not on the agenda, I am tossing it out to the Rules Committee.

While you’re at it, if you want leaving the LT with the 1911 cocked to be a SDQ, please say so in the Handbook.  I’d also ask that the TO be given a chance to “save” the shooter before the stage begins, similar to what we do with the rifle.  Make that change with the shotgun, too, while you’re at it.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Abe E.S. Corpus

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

We are big proponents of clearing the long guns on the line.  
SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY.  has NOTHING to do with moving guns to an unloading table. Think about it. 
what it has to do with is the time consuming operation of unloading 2 single action pistols. CAS moving the guns off the line to facilitate posse speed is what the ULT is for.  We already show the 1911 clear on line ,extremely safe way to clear this pistol . So logically when the shooter picks up his rifle and shotgun shows clear of each safely on the line he should be free to travel  off the line. We also use blue barrels to stage long guns in when we are working a stage with down range movement. We will clear them in the barrel before they ever come out.  Absolutely safest of safe way to get the job done quickly and as a bonus no ULT to man freeing up posse members for other chores. My view anyway!  Dusty

[Garrison Joe]

I am all for clearing our long guns on the line.   Minimal movement with uncleared guns.   Minimal disruption to scoring by having to put in "round discovered" penalties on the score pad/sheet.   Everything to gain, nothing to lose but a few seconds of time for brassers to go forward.  It will be one more point that ticks off the sensitive Cowboy shooters if your club runs WB and cowboy in same posse (a really bad idea IMHO).

good luck, GJ

Edited February 15, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[Flying W Ramrod]

4 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

I am all for clearing our long guns on the line.   Minimal movement with uncleared guns.   Minimal disruption to scoring by having to put in "round discovered" penalties on the score pad/sheet.   Everything to gain, nothing to lose but a few seconds of time for brassers to go forward.  It will be one more point that ticks off the sensitive Cowboy shooters if your club runs WB and cowboy in same posse (a really bad idea IMHO).

good luck, GJ

The only "round discovered" penalties are Miss or SDQ (if it's in the chamber). WB does not use the MSV for round on carrier or in magazine penalty

[Back 40]

I think this is a good idea.

[Happy Jack]

While clearing long guns "on the line"  has some appeal I doubt it will be approved for major matches. SASS makes the final decisions on rule changes for WBAS and the Unloading table is a sacred cow for them.

[Garrison Joe]

Just to expand on the better safety concept, the Range Officer holding the timer has training to at least WB RO level, and thus is much more qualified to perform an unloaded gun check than just the average (or worse, totally untrained new shooter) who is supposed to be checking long guns at the unloading table.  Even worse, at times the "unloading table officer" (usually the previous shooter) has wandered off and the shooter has to wait, or holler for another shooter to come to the table and check guns.  (Or, sometimes, they just check themselves and head for the cart).

I understand commitment to tradition, but I doubt a serious review by qualified range safety officials would be real satisfied with how we often do things currently.

good luck, GJ

[Flying W Ramrod]

3 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

Just to expand on the better safety concept, the Range Officer holding the timer has training to at least WB RO level, and thus is much more qualified to perform an unloaded gun check than just the average (or worse, totally untrained new shooter) who is supposed to be checking long guns at the unloading table.  Even worse, at times the "unloading table officer" (usually the previous shooter) has wandered off and the shooter has to wait, or holler for another shooter to come to the table and check guns.  (Or, sometimes, they just check themselves and head for the cart).

I understand commitment to tradition, but I doubt a serious review by qualified range safety officials would be real satisfied with how we often do things currently.

good luck, GJ

At least you'd hope so. Not so much in the real world. 

[Garrison Joe]

If a major match (state and above) is being held and the ROs are not current with RO training, I'd like to know so I don't spend time and money to come out.  😄

good luck, GJ

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe said:

If a major match (state and above) is being held and the ROs are not current with RO training, I'd like to know so I don't spend time and money to come out.  😄

good luck, GJ

Interesting. Do you do this with CAS as well?

There is no requirement, in CAS or WB, for an RO to be "current". Only TG's

 

[Blastin Brad]

On 2/15/2023 at 1:46 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

The only "round discovered" penalties are Miss or SDQ (if it's in the chamber). WB does not use the MSV for round on carrier or in magazine penalty

That was true in the past, but as of the Feb 24 rules listing, page 22: Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the TO. Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. However, if the action is opened, and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

[Ranger Dan]

3 hours ago, Blastin Brad said:

That was true in the past, but as of the Feb 24 rules listing, page 22: Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the TO. Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. However, if the action is opened, and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

I noticed that also. Seems they copied that directly from the CAS shooters handbook.

[Flying W Ramrod]

13 hours ago, Blastin Brad said:

That was true in the past, but as of the Feb 24 rules listing, page 22: Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the TO. Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. However, if the action is opened, and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

Clarification was made. A round, empty or live, in the chamber is a SDQ, a live or expended round on the carrier or in the magazine is still a no call.

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

When WBAS went to the requirement that the long gun be “cycled” at the end of the string (enough to cock the hammer), there was no penalty for a fired case or hull left in the chamber.  That meant the shooter was not penalized for a failure to extract, or in the event an extracted case or hull fell back into the chamber.

I’m hoping that this change was not intentional but was the result of cutting and pasting between Handbooks in an effort to make the games more consistent.

I got used to the philosophy of getting rid of unnecessary penalties.  That said, I do my best to understand, apply, and play by the rules as they change from time to time.

[Flying W Ramrod]

10 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

When WBAS went to the requirement that the long gun be “cycled” at the end of the string (enough to cock the hammer), there was no penalty for a fired case or hull left in the chamber.  That meant the shooter was not penalized for a failure to extract, or in the event an extracted case or hull fell back into the chamber.

I’m hoping that this change was not intentional but was the result of cutting and pasting between Handbooks in an effort to make the games more consistent.

I got used to the philosophy of getting rid of unnecessary penalties.  That said, I do my best to understand, apply, and play by the rules as they change from time to time.

it was changed due to allowing break action shotguns. This makes the break action shotgun users open their shotguns and shuck the hulls as opposed to just discarding the closed, or open, shotgun and moving on.

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

I guess that makes sense in that a break action shotgun cannot be cycled.

I don’t like this.  It penalizes the shooters who have purchased the pump action shotguns around which the game is based.  This penalty should only be applicable to doubles or single shot shotguns.

[Flying W Ramrod]

7 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus said:

I guess that makes sense in that a break action shotgun cannot be cycled.

I don’t like this.  It penalizes the shooters who have purchased the pump action shotguns around which the game is based.  This penalty should only be applicable to doubles or single shot shotguns.

As stated before. Contact your WBTG and start the ball rolling.