Frame feed ramp issue

[Jack Spade]

My wild bunch gun is an Auto Ordnance 1911A1.  I have sent the slide to Bogus Deal and had better sights put on it.  Have polished internals, changed springs, honed mainspring housing, etc.   This gun runs 230 grain bullets just fine.  However, I have a bunch, over 3k of 200 grain round nose bullets that I would like to shoot.  I have loaded some of them and the 200's feel like they have lighter recoil than the 230's.  My loads are 4.2 gr WST in the 200's and 3.9 in the 230's.  Both of these loads average  160 power factor.  My problem is the 200 grain bullets will not smoothly feed the first round out of the magazine.  I have tried lots of different magazines, colt, springfield, mec gar and chip mccormick.  Have tried both 7 and 8 round magazines, the 8 rounds are a little better but still won't smoothly feed the first round.  After the first round, they feed smoothly from the magazine.  So I got to really looking at the gun and I noticed the frame feed ramp doesn't look right.  My buddy has the exact same gun and his feed ramp looks like the one pictured in the second photo.  The first photo is of the frame feed ramp in my auto ordnance.  The second photo is of the frame feed ramp in my para ordnance 1911 which will feed any of the rounds I load.  The third photo is of them side by side.  I know the angle of this feed ramp is pretty critical.  Is there a way to straighten this up at home or is this best addressed by a gunsmith?  Do you all think this will fix my problem?  Thanks. 

 

[Jack Spade]

I did a little searching on the net and discovered my gun is a made in Hurley pistol and they were known to have feed ramp issues.  Didn't know this before I bought it.  Here are some pictures of the jam and of the ammo I am trying to use.

[Garrison Joe]

Looks matter only a little.  The feeding performance in the field is the important part.  It could be that the left hand frame just was made a little short of material, so the same ramp milling took different amounts off.

The picture that tells us the most is HOW the first round out of magazine comes to a halt when trying to chamber it.   And, are you sling-shotting the slide or dropping the slide with the release lever?  And what spring weights did you install?

Like on most problems with the 1911, the hard part is finding the exact problem.   The easy part is usually fixing the problem.

Now that your jam pictures are up, I'd guess the nose is catching on the very lowest (beginning) part of the ramp.  Does the bullet nose show any marks on it like it ran into a sharp edge?  If when you have a jam, can you "push the slide through the jam", which could show you even more clearly what is catching the nose of the round.  Does the round show any other marks on it that indicate other contact points?

Now, what to do next is kinda based on your previous gunsmithing success.  I (myself) would first try smoothing the feed ramp with some cratex abrasive tips, attempting to turn that sharp edge of the "bottom left" side of the ramp into a smoother and broader shape.  NOT done with a dremel tool or a milling machine because you likely don't have the skills to know what to cut and how to control a perfect cut.   You will need to be sure that the "nose contact point" on the ramp is what you are working on.  Smooth a little, clean and assemble and test again.  

If you tried a good, fairly recent Colt magazine, then you can be pretty sure this is not a magazine issue.   But I get the best feeding from Tripp magazines, just saying.

If this starts to give you the "willies", then you can be certain a gunsmith should take a look.  

This should not be a difficult task for a good 1911 gunsmith.   Properly ramped and throated, a 1911 should be able to feed a fully stuffed magazine of 185 grain hollow points or the good old 200 grain H&G68 semiwadcutter bullet 100% reliably.  As well as your short-nosed 200 RN.   As well, it should feed empty cases! 

Feeding a 230 grain RN shaped like a FMJ load - that's a cake walk and proof of almost nothing (perhaps why the factory can get away shipping a gun with a poorly cut feed ramp?).

Now, looking at your loaded round - I see a bunch of bullet shank sticking out above the case mouth.  This can quite easily impact into the forcing cone ahead of the chamber.   I like to see the intersection point between the shank (cylindrical portion) and the beginning part of the ogive (the nose) be seated right at the case mouth, meaning a little shorter OAL than your pic shows.

If you send the gun off to a smith, make up rounds that you want to be sure will feed in your gun and include them.   Otherwise, they may test with jacketed loads and make the mistake of not really fixing it for lead ammo.

good luck, GJ

Edited January 29, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[Garrison Joe]

Quote

Made in Hurley?

Meaning you have a pre-Kahr-company-takeover, 1980s or early 90s gun made in West Hurley, New York?  If so, you have a rough road ahead of you I would guess.   For reference, read this quote on a post in the 1911 Forum from 2016:

Quote

The early West Hurley, NY Auto Ordnance pistols had a well-deserved reputation for being very rough. I bought one brand-new back in 1989, and it was a total piece of junk that literally couldn't feed ammo from the magazine into the chamber

Serial number starts AOC  and the following numbers below 50000?    West Hurley for certain.

If that is true, you may wish to read the whole thread at:

https://www.1911forum.com/search/359589/?q=west+hurley&o=relevance

good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe]

If the bullet tip shows NO contact damage from the ramp, you could also have a very tight extractor. That would be a simple fix. 

You can do the "extractor tension shake test" yourself in 5 minutes and see if that might be the problem.   However, considering that 230 grain ammo fed and 200 grain ammo (having a different nose shape, I'll bet) did not, it probably eliminates the tight extractor issue.   Since all your ammo should have the same extractor groove shape regardless of the bullet shape you load.

And, by the way, I doubt seriously that you are making (consistently) a 150 power factor with a 200 grain slug over 4.2 grains of WST.   I load 4.6 to 4.7 grains of WST with a 200 grain slug and quite consistently get 168 power factor.  4.2 grains of WST is the often-used load with a 230 grain lead RN slug.  You will probably want to raise that powder charge a smidge - never run Wild Bunch at 152 or even worse 150 PF average.

good luck, GJ

Edited January 29, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[Jack Spade]

I will give the things you mentioned a try. First will be seating the bullets deeper.  Yes the gun says West Hurley, NY on the right side of the frame.

[Garrison Joe]

Paint the ramp with some Dyekem fluid or a black marker.  Let dry a few minutes.  Test your jam again, a streak of raw metal should show where a jam contact is.

GJ

[Jack Spade]

Did the shake test, extractor checks out ok. I seated the bullets deeper, still same issue.  Picture of the nose shows it hitting the ramp.  It does this no matter how you close the slide, sling shot or dropping the slide release.  I can jiggle the slide and it will go closed. 

[Garrison Joe]

So, now you need to really put on your inspector vision glasses (or Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass) and find exactly the spot that is marking the nose of the bullet.   The coating of the ramp (mentioned above) should quickly tell you.   If it is that lower left side of the feed ramp that is the contact point, that is probably where you need to concentrate your polishing/reshaping work.

Since you can clear the jam with just light jiggling of the slide, that says to me you won't have to remove a lot of the ramp metal.  So, that is as good as the news gets right now.  Since it's a mark that is unsymmetrical asymmetrical, it's a problem with only one side of the ramp catching the nose.

good luck, GJ

Edited January 30, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[Tully Mars]

Are the 230's that run well in this pistol a full round nose, and are the 200's loaded to the same COL as the 230's? If so, try a longer COL. Perhaps 1.225-1.24.

GJ is correct the bullet does appear to be seated long, I know what I'm suggesting seems contrary, but it's worth a try.

Tully

[Jack Spade]

I have tried longer and shorter with these 200 grain bullets.  The 230's that run are a tapered round nose shaped like an fmj bullet and are 1.26 oal.  So I think I have the problem solved.  I colored the frame feed ramp with a sharpie and then tried to chamber a round and I could clearly see where it was hitting.  Where the machining of the ramp ends going down into the mag well it had a pretty sharp edge.  I used 1500 grit sand paper wrapped around a .38 case and smoothed and beveled that edge.  The situation is much improved and I think I may do just a little more with the sand paper then polish it with flitz.   Thanks Garrison Joe!