MK

WTC?

In the shooters handbook

On P22 :-

There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun, it will be cocked.

On P19 :-

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only  (some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm):

- Empty.

- No live round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed  (restaged for further use)

- Action open.

So my question is :-

At the end of the shotgun string can a SxS shotgun shooter open the shotgun (cycle) and restage with empty hulls in the chambers without penalties? 

SHB P22 conditions:-(my assumptions in bold)

There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open Condition is satisfied - no penalty 

or that the shooter has cycled. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun, it will be cocked. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

SHB P19 conditions:- (my assumptions in bold)

- Empty. No

- No live round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use) N/A

- Action open. Condition is satisfied - no penalty

Thoughts?

Thanks 

JP

Bugler

The cavalry officers model model holster of 1912 had a strap, not a string to tie the holster down. Mine had one as well and I was told during the warm up match that the strap was not allowed as it was not of traditional design. I removed it and shot the match without the tie down.

What are your ideas or thoughts? Allowed or not?

Any changes coming?

Dry firing is not permitted already.

I would propose that any Shadow Shooting with loaded firearms would be considered unsafe gun handling, and would be penalized.

I would propose that Shadow shooting at the loading table with an unloaded firearm would not be allowed, as there is really not room for such activities.  Inspection of the firearms, loaded or unloaded would be allowed, of course.

I would further propose that shadow shooting prior to the start of a stage, after the firearms have been staged, other than a brief walk through by the shooter, would not be allowed, and repeated episodes might be considered Spirit of the Game, since it delays all of the shooters behind, and even the upcoming posses especially in a big match, where time is critical. 

What duo you think of these ideas?

Second question - the cimmaron 1887 holds 5 in the tube - would it be legal to stage it action open carrier down with a sixth round on the carrier- or how have other people solved this problem. Thanks

Palewolf’s description of the shooter’s options upon ejecting a live round from a rifle in the middle of a sequence (levering the rifle counting as an “engagement”) is applicable to other firearms.  In short, the shooter can re-engage the target he/she attempted to shoot, or take the miss on that target and move to the next.  If the shooter re-engages, the ejected round may be replaced to avoid the miss.  It’s amazing to me how many experienced shooters can’t grasp this.

It is of course pretty common for a WB shooter to eject a live round from the pistol after a malfunction.  There is no “levering” or manual cocking but in my view pointing the jammed pistol at the next target satisfies the requirement of “engagement”, so that Shooter’s Choice applies.  Agree so far?

With a rifle you typically eject one live round.  In the course of clearing a malfunction with the 1911 the shooter may end up dropping a magazine containing several rounds.  How many targets may the shooter “skip” after reloading.

A simple hypothetical:  Seven pistol targets in a row.  Sweep the targets three times from the same direction.  Our shooter completes one sweep and reloads.  Shooter hits T1, T2, T3, and T4, then experiences a double feed malfunction as he points at T5.  Shooter strips the magazine and ejects a total of three live rounds.  Shooter reloads a full magazine and thinking “I’ll take the three misses”, starts the third sweep beginning on T1.

Three misses for sure.  Was the “Shooter’s Choice” option to skip limited to the first target he did not shoot at (here T5), or can the shooter choose to skip three, since three live rounds were ejected or dropped.

Arguably the only missed target he engaged was T5, so he earned a P.

Thoughts?

per rules'"In Wild Bunch Action Shooting, side by side/double barrel shotguns are loaded under TO supervision at the staging location and staged open. The action may not close until “after the beep.” Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. If vertical staging is used, the double/side by side will have to be staged empty."

we are allowing a cocked and loaded firearm to leave the shooters hand? 

A hammered double can be staged hammers cocked and two rounds in the barrels, open?

can a 1887 have two rounds loaded, and open?

can I stage my 97 with one on the carrier, and 5 in the tube?

Lightfoot

So here goes the background. Today completely disassembled my Remington R1 for its semi-annual (??) cleaning. During the process of reassembly, my other half came out to talk to me. During the 'talk' the frame was turned down before the magazine release button was replaced. As the trigger dropped down to the ground bounced around a few times it was then stepped on the other half and really really bent. As I slowly stooped down to pick up the trigger and held it up for both of us to look at I said to her, "No worries. When we are done here will order another trigger."

As I started to look for a traditional trigger, quickly determined this was not as easy of a project as I thought. All the websites Mr. Google came up with have many many triggers to choose from. However, most of those triggers displayed seemed to fit in a 'Modern' gun and were not suited for the 'Traditional' gun. I did manage to find a couple of short and long solid triggers. However those that I could find had a hole drilled for a set screw trigger adjustment.

The latest edition of the WB Shooters Handbook has some information on what types of triggers that can be used. The following is the quote that I am centering on while attempting to order a new trigger: Short or long solid triggers are permitted. No flat or lightweight match triggers are allowed.

I believe I understand what the 'flat or lightweight match triggers" designation references.  What I don't understand is if I order a 'Short or long solid trigger' does the little hole at the bottom of the trigger somehow designate that trigger to now be an illegal trigger for a Traditional WB gun? If the set screw is removed and the little hole filled with (whatever) does it become a 'legal' traditional trigger? I suspect if i did this, no one would notice the difference. Just trying to this correctly.

Or - if someone in this WB reading community can point me to a 'Traditional' trigger to order, that would save hassles in the long run.

Thanks for reading and any help that others can provide.

Respectfully - J.J.

Thanks,

L H

I am one of the two posse marshals at this match. It is WARM here. There are 24 people shooting this match. The posses are lumped together shooting in one wave over the 5 stages with a A and B team in the berm. There are only two WB Trained officials at this match. One of us has a Black Pin and is the club, to which we belong, TG. For my own self, I have 7 of those little 45 pins that I have been able to accumulate over a number of years. Both of us have shot at many, many matches at multiple locations in multiple states.

The question as I understand (and saw) the circumstances is as follows. I was the posse marshal of the person shooting this string to which this happened.

I was sitting at my cart, talking to the RO Instructor about something. At the right time, I happened to look up at the unloading table and saw an individual standing there. He brought his pistol up, pointed it at the berm, squeezed the trigger and shot a round from his 1911 into the berm. Needles to say, this caused quite a ruckus. 

As we high-tailed over to the unloading table to find out what was going on, this is what we were told. The shooter have a jam in his 1911 that he could NOT clear on the line and declared a ‘dead’ gun. The gun was brought to the unloading table and after attempting to clear the gun he was able to get the round into the 1911 chamber. The shooter stated he could not eject the round by pulling back the slide. Apparently his solution to clear the round was to pull back the hammer, pull the trigger and fire the 1911 to get the round out of the chamber. The round did eject properly from the 1911 after the trigger was pulled and the round fired into the berm. Apparently no one knows who told him to clear the 1911 in this manner. If anybody did know, they certainly weren’t talking. 

Mind you there were 24 shooters in this berm. There were a number of shooters standing around the unloading table, there were shooters on the line, were counters and there were other shooters standing around just watching the match. In other words there were shooters everywhere in this bay all standing to the left, right and behind where the shooter was when he pulled the trigger and fired into the berm.

Now anybody reading this short synopsis knows as much as I do. 

Myself and the WB Instructor did not know what a call should be or if there was to be a call concerning this incident. 

I know what the call was by the match director. This person has not had any WB formal training. Let me be the first to say this, she is doing as good of a job being a match director as anyone could. 

If this incident would have happened to you at a match where you looked at as being on of the two ‘match officials’, what would you have done or called??

J.J.

With an average of 969fps they gave a PF of 153. Well within the SASS max of 1400fps. As this was with low humidity and at 6,000ft I may have to up the charge a little to be comfortable wherever I travel.

All rounds tested were started with a clock held one step directly behind and at waist height both under cover and in the open. All rounds were recorded. 

Pre-2024 the shooter was required to cycle the rifle or shotgun before discarding it.  If that was done, there was no penalty for an empty case/hull in the gun, nor for a live round in the gun unless it was in the chamber.

The 2024 rule changes conform the requirement to that in CAS:  the shooter must CLEAR the long gun, and Minor Safety penalties apply to empties or live rounds left in the gun (a live round in the chamber still being a SDQ).

If my interpretation is correct, shouldn’t the references to the long gun being cycled (for example in the glossary) be eliminated?

That prior language remains under the heading “Cartridge Belts, Bandoleers, Magazines and Pouches” (SHB 17.4 p. 20) but seems to be contradicted by the first bullet point under the heading “Ammunition Belts and Loops” which reads “Ammunition required…must be carried on the shooter’s person…, or be safely staged AS REQUIRED BY STAGE INSTRUCTIONS.” (All caps not in original).

I expect this another cut-and-paste from the CAS Handbook.

I liked being able to tell new shooters that they can stage magazines rather than requiring them to purchase magazine pouches.  I’m not sure that is now an accurate statement.

Please don’t tell me what a Match Director has discretion to allow ow waive in a local match.  I know that.

Minutes of the Wild Bunch Territorial Governors Meeting_sent.pdf

Quote

Outlawed Items: All types of athletic shoes or combat boots, no matter the material from which they are constructed. Note: Period military boots with non-grip enhancing soles if appropriate for the costume are legal for Wild Bunch Action Shooting.

Quote

Boots must be SASS Legal

Also, this may sound like a stupid question coming from a former American Soldier who was in fact issued "combat boots" and wore them while in uniform: what are "combat boots" as our rules describe?

Are boots that are not "military" boots permitted to have "grip enhancing soles"?

If you're wondering why I'm asking, it's because I have a closet full of boots I'd like to wear and it appears that at least some of this language is left over from older sets of rules where what "SASS legal" boots were must have been more specifically defined (outside of the costume categories).  I have no desire to "cheat" and after my knee surgery, I am not in any hurry.  But I'd also prefer not to have to resole my boots to something undesirable for their other, daily uses.